What’s wrong with poetry?

[Leanne]

I never said we shouldn't give harsh critiques, I say we stop bitching about it and hop to it.

Listen to that lady.

[brandontoh]

Giving critique is a craft in itself. There are times when my mind just blanks out whenever I want to give feedback. Sometimes it lasts for a few hours, sometimes days.

[newsclippings]

I often just read the poetry in the forums myself.

---

also tectak, the answer to your very initial question is simple: people.

[Leanne]

Giving critique is a craft in itself. There are times when my mind just blanks out whenever I want to give feedback. Sometimes it lasts for a few hours, sometimes days.

I can't always manage it. In-depth critique of the kind that's needed in Serious, which is honestly my favourite kind, can be exhausting. Frankly, I think we're lucky to have anyone do it at all. At a sitting, it might take me half an hour or more for a single critique -- but in reality, I'll read the poem several times before I even attempt it, sometimes over days or even weeks.

Like I said before, there are other forums to post in. Please, if you really don't want serious critique and have no intention of listening to what's being said, just post in a different place.

[cidermaid]

I've been following this thread with interest because I think it is really helpful to understanding how the mods and Billy envisage the whole thing working (was going to use the word hanging there because this seems to be a large component of the site...but I refuse to lower myself to this level).
Basically I agree with many of the comments concerning the need and the point of the crit threads. I think Leanne is on the mark when she says that we cannot afford to ease off just in case we piss a few people off and they leave...there are other sites they can go to for back patting. At the end of the day it is a choice thing. I think the rules and guidelines are well set out and the gentle nudges to get people are fair enough (guilty of not reading all the rules when I first posted).
Also a agree that we need to try and break free of all trying to be in step with each other. This is why I'm in favour of Tom's style of crit and appreciate what he offers. I think perhaps there is only room for one abrupt git...but he is (for the most part a semi polite git) and more importantly much of the time he has just said what every one else was thinking and his comments on punctuation are also correct much of the time. My point is here is that this thread is valuable because one of the things that had been putting me off recently was this issue of all the crit comments becoming homogenised into a pattern of look alike points. I think the site was in danger of becoming a new religion almost, in that there were followers of trends and behaviour.
Also I would like to use this thread to put something out there that had me confused and a bit frustrated. As a given I think that all of my poems are crap and I'm very hesitant about putting anything out there. I had thought that the site worked by placing a crap poem in a lighter crit thread and then as it was worked on it could be re-posted of higher crit. But reading leannes comment has made me wonder if this is really how the mods and Billy see this working? I have been frustrated recently by the ever widening gap between the mild and serious crit threads treatment of poems. (there seems to be no appreciable difference between novice and mild crit threads). I have not been posting in serious because I judged that my poems had too much work to be done on them before they were ready for this section. But from my view there is a "them and us" gulf developing between the serious and other crit threads. I personally do not feel pushed out or threatened by this but it does suspiciously look like some poets have been push out of the elite circle. I do not say this to be critical as such but just as an outside observer. As with any group or club it can be very hard to asses things from the other camp point of view. (I know because I have always been shocked when I have switched from the A to B team or visa versa just what the perceptions of the other camp are...so this is just an observation to keep in mind not a crit as such.

I would like to see more freedom in our crit offerings. More honesty. More view points. I personally am crap at the line by line / word by word placement and choice. My punctuation is at best mediocre, so again not so hot on this...I can only offer what I see and just recently I have been hanging back because I could not offer what I thought people expected or wanted. (I know how soft and daft that sounds but this is in part the point...that is me and who I am. Why does every one need to be the same?) I tried a few experiments with offering something different and I am encouraged by the comments, so will probably continue with this. Perhaps it is my crumb I bring to the table that is different. We all know how hard it is not to fall in step with other people when we walk alongside them. Again I say this has been a good conversation to bring some of these issues onto the table.. And once again I sing the praise of this forum as one where this sort of conversation and openness is unique and so very valuable to keeping our minds fresh and open.
Thank you Tectak and everyone who has made this a great discussion and has contributed to keeping this site valid.
AJ.

[tectak]

I write a poem. and yes, news, evolution is abused as a metaphor. Obviously. And not for the first time (social darwinism). Logically: if evolution is used in the most anarchic way, it follows devolution cannot make sense either. etc yaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwn. Need a drink. I am all for Dada but not if it is not even funny. ,-)

And yes this whole pseudo-poetological babbling makes nothing less than sense.

---

what's wrong with poetry?

in nutshell...nothing, the problem lays with the would be poet. the fuss always seems to be about what the poet who wrote it meant, how they suffer for their art. on a site like this i#m really only interested if the poet is trying to improve, i'm long past anything impressing me, be it poetry or anything else. i love seeing someone do an edit or think about how they can improve. what for me defies logic, is someone posting a poem then after getting feedback asking if uch and such is allowed here. they ask because people leave feedback as to why something doesn't work. write any crazy way you like but don't then question whether or not you're allowed to. write as you will and give feedback as will. wehn you don't do or allow either you create the wrongness in poetry.

we should all be allowed to dislike something in your poem, don't be so fucking shocked if someone gives feedback about the silly fucking ideas you experiment with. who knows some may think what you did works. it's a lottory don't cry if you don't win.


think skin is what's wrong woth poetry...too many poets have thin skin and an elevated idea as to their own greatness.

Now that's what I call "case closed". Amen to that , too, billy.
Worryingly, though (to me) is the never ending (hopefully) stream of mixed ability contributors in Serious who ask for crit, post once, get crit...then vanish. I envisage a kind of Elephant's Graveyard full of souls dispossesed of all reason to live..who abandon poetry and take up butterfly collecting or needlepoint. That is not a measured response to crit and indicates to me an ulterior motive for posting...the wish for respect, recognition and self-aggrandisement is high on their agenda. I would be kind to them all but that reeks of positive discrimination. I would not wish that on anyone, particularly me...which is why I am here and not in another place. To improve in poetry is the reason we post...not praise: though faint praise is fiendishly effective...most do not see it and those who do keep quiet and keep posting.
Best,
tectak

To cut it short, Tom. I can tell you why they run away but you know that by yourself: your tone pisses them off. Who was it again just yesterday I think, who wrote that she was afraid of posting and if you and I could relate? (it was on the snower thread). Please reread.

You make valuable comments but sabotage yourself. I told you that in pm. By all means just keep cool. The fact that some or many people are vainglorious does not entitle you to (to quote myself) knock them out tysonishly. Who the fuck do you think you are?

So you write your poems for 50 years? So I shit and pee since I was born almost 50 years ago. Qualifies me how? Does that prove that my turds smell, or if you are so inclined, taste better than yours? Would not bet on it. ,-).


Once again: write your stuff.


cheeze meek and mild!!!!!

Though we are moving away from the poetry to the poet, that is the way of discussion. I want to bring it back, serge. You are the main offender here, it may be a language thing, but you are misunderstanding the points which I, and others, are making. Poetry exists on many levels, all of which are acceptable, in varying proportions to writer and reader. It is ONLY when the poet prostitututes him/herself by putting up their work for SERIOUS critique that a new "standard" comes in to play. It is that of SUBJECTIVITY...and it works both ways. Poet and critic are seperated by their own standards. It can be difficult to bridge the gap BUT if we are serious about improving, by ANY definition, a piece of work voluntarily (and that is quintessential) submitted for crit, then the difficulty is of no consequence because the bridge does not need to be crossed. The poet and the critic can remain true to themselves, giving and taking crit in whatever spirit they choose. It ill becomes either to turn and run the other way...as you did not and as some others do.
You will note that I made great emphasis of subjectivity. It is a good word. The only virtue we have as critics or poets is our opinion. How we arrive at our opinions is based on just one thing...experience; you and I and all of us are made this way. There is no other way.
Best,
tectak

[brandontoh]

Giving critique is a craft in itself. There are times when my mind just blanks out whenever I want to give feedback. Sometimes it lasts for a few hours, sometimes days.

I can't always manage it. In-depth critique of the kind that's needed in Serious, which is honestly my favourite kind, can be exhausting. Frankly, I think we're lucky to have anyone do it at all. At a sitting, it might take me half an hour or more for a single critique -- but in reality, I'll read the poem several times before I even attempt it, sometimes over days or even weeks.

Like I said before, there are other forums to post in. Please, if you really don't want serious critique and have no intention of listening to what's being said, just post in a different place.

Yeah I think that's a sore spot for the forums. People post in Serious, and when they get a thorough critique, they leave because they got pissed. The time spent on giving those people feedback is wasted.

---

I write a poem. and yes, news, evolution is abused as a metaphor. Obviously. And not for the first time (social darwinism). Logically: if evolution is used in the most anarchic way, it follows devolution cannot make sense either. etc yaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwn. Need a drink. I am all for Dada but not if it is not even funny. ,-)

And yes this whole pseudo-poetological babbling makes nothing less than sense.

---

what's wrong with poetry?

in nutshell...nothing, the problem lays with the would be poet. the fuss always seems to be about what the poet who wrote it meant, how they suffer for their art. on a site like this i#m really only interested if the poet is trying to improve, i'm long past anything impressing me, be it poetry or anything else. i love seeing someone do an edit or think about how they can improve. what for me defies logic, is someone posting a poem then after getting feedback asking if uch and such is allowed here. they ask because people leave feedback as to why something doesn't work. write any crazy way you like but don't then question whether or not you're allowed to. write as you will and give feedback as will. wehn you don't do or allow either you create the wrongness in poetry.

we should all be allowed to dislike something in your poem, don't be so fucking shocked if someone gives feedback about the silly fucking ideas you experiment with. who knows some may think what you did works. it's a lottory don't cry if you don't win.


think skin is what's wrong woth poetry...too many poets have thin skin and an elevated idea as to their own greatness.

Now that's what I call "case closed". Amen to that , too, billy.
Worryingly, though (to me) is the never ending (hopefully) stream of mixed ability contributors in Serious who ask for crit, post once, get crit...then vanish. I envisage a kind of Elephant's Graveyard full of souls dispossesed of all reason to live..who abandon poetry and take up butterfly collecting or needlepoint. That is not a measured response to crit and indicates to me an ulterior motive for posting...the wish for respect, recognition and self-aggrandisement is high on their agenda. I would be kind to them all but that reeks of positive discrimination. I would not wish that on anyone, particularly me...which is why I am here and not in another place. To improve in poetry is the reason we post...not praise: though faint praise is fiendishly effective...most do not see it and those who do keep quiet and keep posting.
Best,
tectak

To cut it short, Tom. I can tell you why they run away but you know that by yourself: your tone pisses them off. Who was it again just yesterday I think, who wrote that she was afraid of posting and if you and I could relate? (it was on the snower thread). Please reread.

You make valuable comments but sabotage yourself. I told you that in pm. By all means just keep cool. The fact that some or many people are vainglorious does not entitle you to (to quote myself) knock them out tysonishly. Who the fuck do you think you are?

So you write your poems for 50 years? So I shit and pee since I was born almost 50 years ago. Qualifies me how? Does that prove that my turds smell, or if you are so inclined, taste better than yours? Would not bet on it. ,-).


Once again: write your stuff.


cheeze meek and mild!!!!!

Though we are moving away from the poetry to the poet, that is the way of discussion. I want to bring it back, serge. You are the main offender here, it may be a language thing, but you are misunderstanding the points which I, and others, are making. Poetry exists on many levels, all of which are acceptable, in varying proportions to writer and reader. It is ONLY when the poet prostitututes him/herself by putting up their work for SERIOUS critique that a new "standard" comes in to play. It is that of SUBJECTIVITY...and it works both ways. Poet and critic are seperated by their own standards. It can be difficult to bridge the gap BUT if we are serious about improving, by ANY definition, a piece of work voluntarily (and that is quintessential) submitted for crit, then the difficulty is of no consequence because the bridge does not need to be crossed. The poet and the critic can remain true to themselves, giving and taking crit in whatever spirit they choose. It ill becomes either to turn and run the other way...as you did not and as some others do.
You will note that I made great emphasis of subjectivity. It is a good word. The only virtue we have as critics or poets is our opinion. How we arrive at our opinions is based on just one thing...experience; you and I and all of us are made this way. There is no other way.
Best,
tectak

English itself s a very iffy language. In a sense, poets and writers are finding order in chaos, especially in the case of poetry. In my opinion, subjectivity comes in most obviously when what one finds orderly is chaotic to another. I think that the problem with poetry is the shakiness of the language, which ironically becomes its greatest virtue.

[Leanne]

[rayheinrich]

I never said we shouldn't give harsh critiques, I say we stop bitching about it and hop to it.

Listen to that lady.

Yes, now there are two good reasons to write poetry:
1. No reason at all
2. Bitching

I've noticed that a critique is usually longer than the poem
and that the bitching about the critique is usually longer
than the critique and that the bitching about the bitching
about the critique is usually longer still which, obviously,
brings up a third good reason to write poetry:

3. To keep from bitching about critiques.

[tectak]

AJ, just ><

The gulf you describe is one I've always wanted to avoid at all costs. My personal vision -- and it's mostly shared by the rest of the team, to varying degrees -- is that if someone posts in novice it's expected that they are unfamiliar with a lot of the terminology and techniques of poetry, so we give them just a little bit at a time to ease them into it. Eventually, we'd love everyone to end up in Serious. Novice is also a place for novice critiques to try out their ideas on others and share with people of a similar experience level. Bear in mind, I do not equate experience with talent. The thing that experience brings that talent cannot is a familiarity with a wider range of poems, so the experienced poet/critic will more easily spot a cliche or a well-worn trope that is not working in its present context.

Mild critique has really always been for people who just want a little bit of feedback, mostly at surface level. It's a good place for the very personal poems especially. While we CAN give line-by-line critiques there (that's just a style, it has nothing to do with depth), it's not really encouraged and this is why it's a more attractive forum for people who are newer to critique.

Serious critique need not always be line-by-line and by the time someone posts in serious, quite frankly I'd expect that they've got a fairly good grip on their grammar and spelling so that comments on that are not required. They WILL be given though, because a poor presentation detracts from the poem and will elicit criticism if the critic is being thorough. We prefer that people proofread before posting there, so that we don't have to waste our time doing it and can get straight down to a more in-depth analysis. Personally I prefer a more holistic critique to line-by-line and will only do the latter when I have specific suggestions to make that will alter the order of the words. Otherwise, comments on the meaning (reader-generated), the effect of figurative techniques, line breaks, form etc -- they're all very welcome.

---

English itself s a very iffy language. In a sense, poets and writers are finding order in chaos, especially in the case of poetry. In my opinion, subjectivity comes in most obviously when what one finds orderly is chaotic to another. I think that the problem with poetry is the shakiness of the language, which ironically becomes its greatest virtue.

Not me. If I find order in the chaos, I do my very best to turn it back into chaos as quickly as possible

I am encouraged by all I hear. I am considering moving in to MILD. Hmm. Shall we vote on it?

[brandontoh]

Why not both?

[Todd]

AJ,

Always love how well thought out your comments are. When I think about the three critique forums, I think about my own progression as a writer.

Novice: When I first got started, I didn't have the ability to execute on many things. The phrasing and the effect of the phrasing felt locked away. If someone had given me at that time both barrels of all the critique they could muster I would have probably agreed with them but been unsure how to proceed. I'd hear I like your sonics or assonance and they might has well been speaking Basque to me. I had no idea how to critique. It took me a while to gain any of these skills. This is what I see the Novice forum providing. It's less a rank and more a reminder to the critic not to use jargon without an explanation, and to try to provide feedback that the person might be able to use. Even among the mods, we have different views on what constitutes acceptable critique here. We have to balance not scaring people off, and actually giving them enough information to work on. I tend to slant toward the more information. There are good poems or at least the bones of good poems that get posted here. There is also typical beginner poetry with all of the issues that that implies. It's where most of us started so we try to be honest and kind. If we can't be kind, we at least go for honest.

Mild Forum: Transitional forums are like middle children. This one has a few uses. It gives critics a little more breathing room. I tend to post here when the poem seems exceptionally light to me, or if I'm honestly unsure of whether its even working. I'm often looking for impressions not a deep dive. Is this worth developing?

Serious Forum: My general thought, and again other moderators may or may not differ, is that if you can offer critique in serious than you're capable of posting in serious. If the best you've got is: I like it. You're probably not ready for the forum. Now there are times when you read something and just think, damn why do I write this is genius. I wish that happened all the time. You should still try to explain why it works so well. It's the difference between this meal is great and your use of basil really brings out the flavors in the pork. I don't want there to be an imposed gulf between people. I also don't want to be fixing tons and tons of basic errors in serious. When you go to far down that road, you end up rewriting the person's poem and no one learns or gets better. Serious is the forum where people can love it or hate it, come on strong, and you the writer have the confidence to say even if just to yourself, I agree or I don't agree. It's a place where you have the ability to distance yourself from your work enough to view it objectively. If you are still your poem, you're not ready.

I don't know if that ramble helps any, but it's where your comments took me.

[billy]

I've been following this thread with interest because I think it is really helpful to understanding how the mods and Billy envisage the whole thing working (was going to use the word hanging there because this seems to be a large component of the site...but I refuse to lower myself to this level).
Basically I agree with many of the comments concerning the need and the point of the crit threads. I think Leanne is on the mark when she says that we cannot afford to ease off just in case we piss a few people off and they leave...there are other sites they can go to for back patting. At the end of the day it is a choice thing. I think the rules and guidelines are well set out and the gentle nudges to get people are fair enough (guilty of not reading all the rules when I first posted).
Also a agree that we need to try and break free of all trying to be in step with each other. This is why I'm in favour of Tom's style of crit and appreciate what he offers. I think perhaps there is only room for one abrupt git...but he is (for the most part a semi polite git) and more importantly much of the time he has just said what every one else was thinking and his comments on punctuation are also correct much of the time. My point is here is that this thread is valuable because one of the things that had been putting me off recently was this issue of all the crit comments becoming homogenised into a pattern of look alike points. I think the site was in danger of becoming a new religion almost, in that there were followers of trends and behaviour.
Also I would like to use this thread to put something out there that had me confused and a bit frustrated. As a given I think that all of my poems are crap and I'm very hesitant about putting anything out there. I had thought that the site worked by placing a crap poem in a lighter crit thread and then as it was worked on it could be re-posted of higher crit. But reading leannes comment has made me wonder if this is really how the mods and Billy see this working? I have been frustrated recently by the ever widening gap between the mild and serious crit threads treatment of poems. (there seems to be no appreciable difference between novice and mild crit threads). I have not been posting in serious because I judged that my poems had too much work to be done on them before they were ready for this section. But from my view there is a "them and us" gulf developing between the serious and other crit threads. I personally do not feel pushed out or threatened by this but it does suspiciously look like some poets have been push out of the elite circle. I do not say this to be critical as such but just as an outside observer. As with any group or club it can be very hard to asses things from the other camp point of view. (I know because I have always been shocked when I have switched from the A to B team or visa versa just what the perceptions of the other camp are...so this is just an observation to keep in mind not a crit as such.

I would like to see more freedom in our crit offerings. More honesty. More view points. I personally am crap at the line by line / word by word placement and choice. My punctuation is at best mediocre, so again not so hot on this...I can only offer what I see and just recently I have been hanging back because I could not offer what I thought people expected or wanted. (I know how soft and daft that sounds but this is in part the point...that is me and who I am. Why does every one need to be the same?) I tried a few experiments with offering something different and I am encouraged by the comments, so will probably continue with this. Perhaps it is my crumb I bring to the table that is different. We all know how hard it is not to fall in step with other people when we walk alongside them. Again I say this has been a good conversation to bring some of these issues onto the table.. And once again I sing the praise of this forum as one where this sort of conversation and openness is unique and so very valuable to keeping our minds fresh and open.
Thank you Tectak and everyone who has made this a great discussion and has contributed to keeping this site valid.
AJ.

on the same crit in novice and mild thing aj.

oftem people forget they are in nocice and leave a mild crit. as mods we're (i'm) prone to let such feedback slide till they get out of hand, i've personally been guilty a few times of going overboard...it can be hard if there are more than a few things wrong to stop ourselves.

regards tom's feedback which this thread shouldn't really be about but we went there. i'd sooner have a dozen tommytecktacks than a million pieces of ineffectual feedback. i actually find him degrading and at the same time fun when he leaves feedback, though not nearly often enough, sometimes he's reall pleasant which is boring but also nice because it means he likes the poem. i prefer his feedback to mine own if truth be told. we also have some others (no names mentioned) who give excellent feedback.

if something isn't working point it out.

i love rays response about poetry and the 80 word poem. poetry's fine, alive and kicking. poets though are murdering the poor bastard

to the evolving thing, poetry; art in general is constantly evolving. fucking around with punctuation is pretty common though. it's one of the first things a monky does with a typewriter. clg bliufr;jkbcb l
it may make you think but after a few seconds it's meaningless. leaving no space between words is old hat, look at the lipsmacking,thirstquenching,bullshit, pepsi,ads. it's a gimmick. evolving isn't seen by those who hve evolved, it's seen through the past. words will always evolve, textspeak will become common language (i hate it) but to write a certain way and say i'm helping poetry to evolve is somewhat like peeling an orange and claiming footwear will evolve after you throw it on the floor. honestly...it won't.

and to some extent, that's what's wrong with poetry. the bullshit poets feed each other as to what their work represents.

it's a dog with a slipper for god's sake

[rowens]

Everyone always seems to ignore my suggestions to get away from the intellectuals and those that have the 9 to 5, and give the poetry back to the bums that can't get a real job.

Intellectuals hijack everything, just like the hipsters. People can't even watch Full House any more without making some sophisticated or clever comment. I blame it on the Internet; the Internet's making everyone too damn knowledgable.

I can't even use the old pretend like you're searching for something in your pocket so you can scratch your ballsack in public move any more. People are on to everything.

Soon everybody's going to be so smart, or at least good at sounding smart, and so insecure and self-protected from ridicule, that everything is going to sound like the comment section of some know-it-all's blog, discussing what so and so said in response to so and so about something or another, filled with quotation marks, appropriate Amazon and Good Read links, and a sub-comment section surrounded by a box, showing a snippet from an essay made for school with a link that says "For further reference, see..."

I think the intellectuals should stay drunk for a few months, and miss work without calling in. And the bums should inherit the Earth.

[billy]

i think i agree with you. someone asks a question and someone else googles it and comes back with a reply like they have a masters in biotechnology and shit maybe booze, sex and drugs are the way to go. can't say i often scratch my ballsack in public though i think we have a couple of the good intelluals here a fair smattering of gobshites (like me) and enough arty farty guys like you it's a good mix i think.

[rowens]

Like I said earlier. You let the bums have enough time and energy to be poets, and they'll accidentally become intelligent craftsman.

[billy]

i've been reading more of bukowski and i think you could be right. i used to think him a bad poet but now i'm seeing that it was me who was the bad poet. sometimes you think you know more than you actually do

[rowens]

I've only read his stories and I listened to a few of his poems,
"The Genius of the Crowd" and one about throwing a radio out the window. Girls seem to like him a lot, I always hear them talking about him. Then I looked at his picture, and I felt there was hope yet.

---

And I think of something like this by David Lerner. I don't know much about him either. But it seems good enough to me. It might not be much, but on certain days, and in certain situations, it says a lot about how poetry and poets just want to be able to live while they can. But seeing that I actually know that he exists, he must have more authority than me. So I quote him.




poetry isn’t literary
poetry isn’t sure which fork to
use
poetry can’t name the parts of speech
fill out a grant application
logroll

poetry doesn’t like cappuccino
poetry doesn’t want to be printed in a
small press edition with its name on the
cover and get reviewed in 2 little magazines
read by 3 people
argued over by 8

poetry doesn’t care about glory
glory is nice but poetry figures it’s
dessert
poetry doesn’t want to get laid
poetry might want to get drunk but
that’s only self defense

poetry doesn’t want to traipse around Europe
and collect stray bits of wisdom
from ruined empires
that it can show like slides when it gets home
poetry has a headache

poetry is a better slingshot
a war you can carry in your pocket
a better way to die
the kind of fire that never goes out
and never gives an inch

poetry wants to be on every street corner
hissing from the cracks in the sidewalks
from the columns of print in the newspapers
on the lips of people on buses going to their
miserable jobs in the morning

poetry wants to be
in the prayers of dogs and the
screams of acrobats
in the terror of politicians
and the dreams of beautiful women

poetry wants to be
an eye through which the world will see itself and
tremble

poetry doesn’t want to
die in the gutter
it already knows how

poetry doesn’t want to sparechange strolling professors
and millionaires
wear anything but blood

have conversations with college students about
the meaning of life

because a bad wind is coming
you can smell it in the air

the pollution of the cities
mixed with the odor of rotting souls

the wind will climb

it will have little sense of humor
it will not want a cappuccino
or reviews
or girlfriends
or anything else

except the death of
everything we love

---

I've been to lectures before, and I've been listening to some on the Internet. Every time one of the speakers says something like "We have one of the worst education systems among the richest countries..." or something, and that always gets a great applause with all the people smiling and feeling clever. And they pull out the Bush administration, and that gets a round of applause and laughs and smiles. And I've been walking through cities like D.C. when protests or going on, and people are enjoying themselves, and I believe they're happy that dumb shit is always going on. They're happy when they can pounce on something or someone and feel clever and in on something. And people get up and ask questions after the talks, and they use all the big words that nobody uses except for when they're at question and answer sessions. And then I feel clever and amused, and I feel like an asshole, and then go get drunk, because I feel shameful.

[serge gurkski]

Giving critique is a craft in itself. There are times when my mind just blanks out whenever I want to give feedback. Sometimes it lasts for a few hours, sometimes days.

I can't always manage it. In-depth critique of the kind that's needed in Serious, which is honestly my favourite kind, can be exhausting. Frankly, I think we're lucky to have anyone do it at all. At a sitting, it might take me half an hour or more for a single critique -- but in reality, I'll read the poem several times before I even attempt it, sometimes over days or even weeks.

Like I said before, there are other forums to post in. Please, if you really don't want serious critique and have no intention of listening to what's being said, just post in a different place.

It might even be more ehausting than working on your own stuff. But there is a real return of investment.
It is just creative as writing my own stuff.

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at AJ:

quote: As a given I think that all of my poems are crap and I'm very hesitant about putting anything out there. unquote.

Been there. Nowadays I think that this kind of reasoning /feeling is a kind of preemptive strike in order to showcase my own texts. To avoid confrontation.

I intentionally used the word: showcase because even if I want serious feedback here, there is a part of me that simply wants to be adored. I want to show my babies around and everyone going: awwww, so cute! ,-) But I also want to give birth to even cuter babes.

I absolutely loved all the feedback I got on my Barabara baby. This is exactly what I want. Workshop!
I really feel that all those comments, suggestions etc helped me to improve.

Harshness is not the issue, but ad hominem is (howsoever professionally disguised, I can smell it and think most of you can too.)

at Tom just this: "main offender!" <<<< ---- Mirror, mirror on the wall. ;-) (I digged the way you commented on Barbara! why not always like that? )

cheers

sg

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Like I said earlier. You let the bums have enough time and energy to be poets, and they'll accidentally become intelligent craftsman.

you might only say that bc you are one of us bum. ,-) But ok.

I'll post a Mississippi Delta Blues piece over at our jukebox. These musicians are bums and cool.

[rowens]

Two reasons people want to be original and to find something new, self-gratification or spleen.