Mentor: Pomology

[cidermaid]

Ok here was the poem from misc I mentioned. Now i look at it in cold blood I think there was a good reason why it only had the one comment. But I guess this just means there will be plenty to discuss concerning how it might be re-worked / improved.


Pomology.

In the beginning, from Alma Ata,
the seed of life branched out.
Birthed in a garden, borne on willing arms,
fed by abundant springs. Vented portent.

Outstanding in the forest. In the wild woods
of Kazakhstan, on the ridges of the Tian
Shan mountains. The mother tree
bears her load. Noted and worthy ascent.

The softest bloom, the sweetest shade,
Sturdy, yet often bent by adverse wind.
Support for the weary. Collected by kings,
still fit for the pauper to pick. Autumn advent.

From blushing bloom, to sweet succour,
a sight to feast the eyes. The fragrance
of the forest in fall time, fermenting,
is unlike any other. A prime event.

Pungent, aromas assault your senses.
Pears, plums and apricots are noted.
From the fecund heart, thickets of apples
radiate out in all directions. Developing scent.

From that first fruit in Eden, ear
to eye, lip parting. Taken to heart;
the flesh pierced, skinned consumed.
The seed – discarded. Unwanted fragment.

The fallen seed has need of nebulous
navigation, to fulfil the final abrogation.
The plan, seeded from a founding tree, one word
before the descent, one bite to implement.

And when the sun is finally done; from East
west a forest of fruitful trees will line the road…
…from here to eternity. The final event.

[Todd]

Hi AJ, let's start with some basic ideas.

Not that I have a lot of experience formally mentoring someone, but I do have some basic opinions on the topic. Here's my stance (I've posted along these lines before I'll modify and repost to begin our discussion):

Things to think about in no particular order:

1) Before rewriting anything, you need to ask yourself what do you want the reader to leave the poem feeling or thinking? What impact are you looking to have? You need to build the poem toward that end.

2) Look at your opening lines do they fall flat, or do they draw the reader in?

3) Does every word do something eliminate all filler. In prose and poetry, we have three basic elements they're tied into the foundation of sentences--I do allow for fragments though. (I'm not a scholar so there might be more ): Propositional Content, Word Choice, Syntax (word order).

Poetry is about taking control of all three elements.

Why this content? Why this word? Why this order?

The goal will not be to make this poem a great poem (though that may happen). The goal is process over poetry. We want you to get a handle on your creative process, and be able to make it do what you want it to do.

We are going to work from result back to concept. What is the result you want? Does this structure, content, diction, imagery, etc support that result.

You may be really different from me AJ. I get an idea. I find a first line to get me going, and a lot of the writing is just a creative burst (assuming it isn't stillborn). The rest is the editing. I'd like to work on that process.

A couple comments on the poem to get us started:

Love the title, the eden reference, and the idea of cultivating that goes along with it. You've chosen a rich vein of imagery that you can tap.

Could you let me know what you want to leave the reader with thoughts and/or feelings?

You wrote this some time ago, so you should be able to read as the reader and not the writer. Objectively, walk me through what you we're trying to do in each strophe--just the rough idea.

Your introductory phrase points to Genesis 1, and I like that with the title. How effective is your opening line?

We'll go further, but let's take this in chunks.

Hopefully, this type of thing works for you. If instead there is any particular area you'd like to focus on, we can start there (or get to it later).

Final thing: Beyond this poem. What do you want to get out of this?

Thanks, I look forward to working with you.

Best,

Todd

Ok here was the poem from misc I mentioned. Now i look at it in cold blood I think there was a good reason why it only had the one comment. But I guess this just means there will be plenty to discuss concerning how it might be re-worked / improved.


Pomology.

In the beginning, from Alma Ata,
the seed of life branched out.
Birthed in a garden, borne on willing arms,
fed by abundant springs. Vented portent.

Outstanding in the forest. In the wild woods
of Kazakhstan, on the ridges of the Tian
Shan mountains. The mother tree
bears her load. Noted and worthy ascent.

The softest bloom, the sweetest shade,
Sturdy, yet often bent by adverse wind.
Support for the weary. Collected by kings,
still fit for the pauper to pick. Autumn advent.

From blushing bloom, to sweet succour,
a sight to feast the eyes. The fragrance
of the forest in fall time, fermenting,
is unlike any other. A prime event.

Pungent, aromas assault your senses.
Pears, plums and apricots are noted.
From the fecund heart, thickets of apples
radiate out in all directions. Developing scent.

From that first fruit in Eden, ear
to eye, lip parting. Taken to heart;
the flesh pierced, skinned consumed.
The seed – discarded. Unwanted fragment.

The fallen seed has need of nebulous
navigation, to fulfil the final abrogation.
The plan, seeded from a founding tree, one word
before the descent, one bite to implement.

And when the sun is finally done; from East
west a forest of fruitful trees will line the road…
…from here to eternity. The final event.

[cidermaid]

Hi Todd,
Apoligies for not being back sooner. I have a bit of a domestic crisis going on in that my mother has taken a bad fall and now will be needing a lot of extra care. I think i will need to put this project on hold for a while.

Thank you for the starter notes I had made a start on my reply when I got the phone call. I might well post these up anyway, but perhaps hold fire on any further progress untill i can get back.

[Todd]

No rush AJ. Sorry to hear about your mother. Attend to the important things. This will be waiting for you. We have no timetable to finish.

[cidermaid]

Hi Todd,
i know i am not officially here but actually doing this is good stress busting for me so i finished off the notes i had begun to make before everything went pear shaped.
Don't mind if we leave this for now or if we slowly chip away at it. (It does help to have something to do other than be stressed).

Editing notes.
More than happy with your starting points / questions.
I’ll start with your final question. I am hoping to move my writing from a place of random bursts of creativity into a more connected process whereby I can more fully understand what and why things work and how to communicate my ideas and images to a greater level than I currently do, as I feel that I am thinking beyond my ability to communicate my thoughts. (Which I think my notes on this poem will well demonstrate this problem). I feel like I am over thinking and working my poems and this is making them seem forced and wooden at times. I want to loosen up a bit.

1. Could you let me know what you want to leave the reader with thoughts and/or feelings?
Overall I wanted my poem to convey a sense of wonder and delight in the process that gave them the humble apple -Specifically I wanted a creation image and within this a sense of wonder about nature.
As a sub plot I wanted to convey an element of / potted version even, of the story of salvation from Genesis to the NT . I wanted the ups and downs of life to seen in parallel to the idea of it not being random chance but that there has always been a plan and a purpose.
So I guess I wanted to write something about creation / nature that made people think without it being too deep or abstract. Thought provoking, yet accessible and simple.
(The inspiration for this came from reading a book called “The Wyld woods” about a personal voyage of discovery that led the author to the birthplace of the modern apple tree. Also a follow up article I read about the area around Alma Atta (the nearest habitation to the natural fruit forests) – Which loosely translated means Father of the apple. I had been gripped by the idea of finding nature’s Eden and from this had mused on my faith. http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/a...icle/2961/ )

2. Strophe by strophe.
Pomology.
The title – I just wanted something simple that would not put people off by making them think it was a religious poem. (Did not want it to read overtly religious). Thought Pomology suggested a slightly scientific slant, thus a thinking man’s way to reference an apple. (Anything with an “ology” in has got to mean higher learning )
The Bible is split into two sections and so the thread of thoughts in my poem followed the same. The first half (S1 – 3) was meant to represent the OT with a heavy application of ideas from Song of Songs because I have an idea that that I have been following this is a mini overview of the whole Bible from God’s perspective. (The final 4 strophe are to represent the NT with a three line conclusion)….but it all got a bit confused and intermingled come the actual write.
In my original musing I had been thinking on how a modern apple tree is grafted onto a strong rootstock. The rootstock is tailored to suit the soil, available space, altitude and rainfall of a given area. I had set out to write a poem that explored the Christian faith of being “in-grafted to Christ” a but basically found myself lacking in the skill to make this subtle and approachable to all readers. So I changed my slant to something that has a wider appeal or ambivalence in how it could be interpreted.

In the beginning, from Alma Ata, Wanted the poem to have a story like feel. Naming the place I felt grounded the story as real. Sub text:- The opening three words are so iconic that I felt it would nail my flag to the mast of meaning from the first and having got it out of the way I would then be free to not have any directly identifiable bible references throughout the rest of the poem. I used it deliberately to plug my reader into the sub text of the poem. Had thought long on if to use the name of the place or the translation of the name (roughly translated:- Father of apples). Decided Father linked with “In the beginning” was too religious. I am still happy with the first line and felt it was effective. (Apart from the comma at the end – lost count of how many times I removed it).

the seed of life branched out. An Eden image, seed of the apple and seed of man used interchangeably. Specific choice of, “branched” connect to a tree also as in family tree. Wanted a word that would convey divergent and leaving the original path. (In tree orcharding talk this could be said to be the centre leader, which I did muse over using but thought it was too tree specific for some perhaps, so would confuse the read).
Birthed in a garden, borne on willing arms, Birthed in a garden is admittedly a bit of a story filler to move into next thought (although does have SoS connections but probably only in my mind ). The willing arms are an image from the book in that he talks of how the wild orchards are on old trade routes and that the locals traded the apples as supplies to be eaten by the travellers. In the book he charts the spread of the apple tree along the trade routes. Also for OT thread I liked the image of the men of faith exporting their faith as they travelled around and likewise them being carried by the father’s arms; had hoped that some of this image might translate – not convinced it does but I still like the willing arms image.
fed by abundant springs. Vented portent. Abundant springs is a frequent reference in Bible, the springs and wells carry a lot of significance for spiritual meaning. Is a direct lift from both the book – the mountain area of the forests are fed by abundant springs and from SoS where the beloved is referred to as a garden fountain, a well of flowing water. The last two words were meant to be significant and to stand out with a statement*. In this case to indicate an outspoken / vocalised purpose or plan ascribed to the things listed as happening to date through the narrative. Also to connect the idea of the spring of water that gives life being what has carried this event forward through time and allowed it to prosper. A hint to suggest the work of the Holy Spirit (…or at least in my tiny and confused mind all of the above was going on in my thought process)
*I had an idea of playing with a set form / style –and arrived at the thought of wanting the last two words to be significant and to carry a theme through the poem as a whole, to tell a sub story. I deliberately chose the “ent” word list as it gave me a lot of options to choose from. On later reading this now seems forced and I’m thinking it actually detracts from the message by being unsubtle.

Outstanding in the forest. SoS reference. “Like an apple tree amongst the trees of the forest is my beloved among the young men”. A key image / text for me in my original musing. This whole strophe was what first came to me. I sort of worked out from this place and wrote the rest of the poem around it. Originally it was my first strophe.
In the wild woods of Kazakhstan, The book makes a strong case to argue that all modern apples came from this region. Sub text:- In and of the world before salvation. (Hiding from God amongst a multitude of other faiths).
on the ridges of the Tian Shan mountains. Again a physical region reference. Sub text: SoS reference – the dove in the clefts and hidden amidst the pagan mountain practices – In a lofty spiritual place but not in a place of spiritual comfort or peace
The mother tree bears her load. Firming up what is under discussion, a original type of tree, in this case an apple. Sub text:-Answers what the question of what is outstanding. (Now see punctuation needs to be improved to clarify this concept). The mother tree = Jewish faith of Jesus. (Jewish because of mother). Bears her load – trials and suffering of Mary. Jesus is the outstanding fruit tree. The original apple hanging on the tree (in Eden) before it was plucked and despoiled. (Original sin leading to the branching of ways and being lost up on the high places amongst a multitude of other trees). The load is the fruit of Jesus replicated in every seed (believer) that has been planted. So this is the in-grafting concept that I originally wanted to write about now re-worked.
Noted and worthy ascent. Summing up this strophe -- Salvation can be found in the spiritual heights of the birthplace (of faith) - within the Jewish faith, for those who ascend this way; the benefits are great. (There is a richness in knowing our rootstock heritage) Obviously this is way too much information and imagery to be carried in a routine read. (Just offering the background thoughts). I hoped that what might commonly be picked up was the idea of there being a parallel between what happened in nature (spreading out from Eden) – with what happened to the seeds of faith in the OT and in the new. – It has spread and multiplied and become many different colours and flavours but an apple is still an apple).

Perhaps enough already with the notes! I will leave it here for now. The rest of the notes I can gladly supply, but suffice to say that I think this more than amply demonstrates my over thinking problem.

So in a nutshell and trying to be as harsh and honest as I can
Stanza 1, 2 & 3 I am locked into SoS imagery and my original ideas. It sort of works in that it carries a strong message as I read it, (but then I am finding it hard to read this objectively and without my background thoughts). It does feels very stilted.
Stanza 4 & 5 I am trying to break free and inject some freedom and life into my text with some richer nature images. Seems at odds with the beginning and end. A bit like an interlude in a film.
Stanza 6 & 7 I am trying to force my poem back into the original story line box. Horrible. Faux spiritual and poetic. Needs major re-work.
Stanza 8 just looks like I gave up / got bored and rushed off a one minute wonder to be done with it.

[Todd]

Editing notes.
More than happy with your starting points / questions.
I’ll start with your final question. I am hoping to move my writing from a place of random bursts of creativity into a more connected process whereby I can more fully understand what and why things work and how to communicate my ideas and images to a greater level than I currently do, as I feel that I am thinking beyond my ability to communicate my thoughts. (Which I think my notes on this poem will well demonstrate this problem). I feel like I am over thinking and working my poems and this is making them seem forced and wooden at times. I want to loosen up a bit.[/color]

AJ, Thanks all the detail was very helpful. We'll use your poem as a scaffold to set our work together on. Again, I'd like to focus more on your process than on this particular poem--though, we'll be going over this one a lot. Let's start with the area I've quoted above.

First you mention that you have random bursts of creativity which implies that they are beyond your control and may even seem capricious in their timing.

I may be wrong in anything I say keep that in mind throughout. I'm just going to try a few different ideas and we'll see if any of them prove helpful. You feel you are thinking beyond your ability to execute. That may be, but from reading everything you've written I suspect your issue may be slightly different. I think when you key in later that you'd like your poems to be less forced, wooden and looser you're closer to the real issue.

You are doing a lot of heavy lifting and probably working against your creativity by plotting as tightly as you're doing. You're feeling the necessity to plot it through too strongly (makes it forced).

Here's what I'd suggest to start:

1) Give yourself the right to write crap. Do not be concerned if what you're writing is good. I can't emphasize this more. I'm not saying don't eventually edit. To get control of your process you've got to write a lot without editing. There will be some gems and directions that will happen organically that will surprise you. I think you will subconsciously take your writing up a level this way.

2) Don't worry about your plotting till you write just move through the poem as the concepts come to you.

Try these prompts for me with your poem:

Change the title to something related but radically different see where that takes you.

Make your current last line your first write the poem again.

Remove one of the senses from the poem (smell maybe) emphasize a different sense (let's say auditory).

Choose a different speaker for the poem radically different from who you've chosen now even if the current one is close to your normal writer's voice. How would this new speaker relate the poem?

Try this, take your time. Let's see if anything develops from it. The way that you move from random bursts to controlled process is to continue to just write, write, write and turn off your internal editor until you're ready to edit.

Again, not sure how helpful this will be AJ. But if you're game let's give it a shot together.

Best,

Todd

[cidermaid]

Todd,
Thanks for those ideas, they very much make sense to me (I am actually really looking forward to having a go at the prompts - feels freeing and a bit like the poetry month project earlier in the year - throw all caution and contrived effort out the window and just write).
Just one question: Were you meaning me to put my current effort to one side and use your prompts for completly new poem based loosely around my concept idea or did you mean to take the poem and apply the prompt to do re-writes?
(I am thinking you mean the former, this would make sense of the not editing untill later comment. So I'm off to apply your comments to new writes. Will take a couple of days no doubt, so will look in later to make sure I'm not misinterpreting you suggestions).
Thanks for the suggestions. Really helpful comments
AJ.

[Todd]

I mean the former. We will see what comes out of that, and then circle back to your original. We'll see if the other versions tell us anything that help the overall project.

And yes, it should take some time. Just post whatever you have as you have it. We don't have to do them all at once. Do the first one we'll talk about it then move to the second one. It could be that we decide let's do another title first. Let's stay as open as we can.

[cidermaid]

You know when a poetry prompt is working when you are skiving off work to sneak a few lines off during teabreaks.
Had a go at a couple of the prompts today.

Your prompts: Give the poem a new title and see where it goes…
Exodus from Alma-Ata

In the forests of the Tian Shan mountains
the wild fruit trees grow.
Clustered branches of families.
Intermingling, sowing seeds
that break out
In diverse directions;
fragrant notes of a blue print mother.

They transverse the ridges,
to fill the valleys of the high reaches.
Peaches, pears and plums
exist in tight knitted communities.
Spliced arbours of sweet delight.
The first fruits are highly prized ,
cherry picked and carried off.
De-fleshed on flood plains and river banks,
the core is cast aside. Shooting
seedlings reach out with green leaves.

Others lie where they have fallen,
rejected and forgotten
in worm infested papaya sheets.
Bedded down in a premature
state of declining wealth.
The sound of falling apples
is echoed in the thunder clouds
that gather over the pommice pits.


The last line to become the first line….

From here to eternity. The final event
is set in an eternal loop.
Self seeded along an ancient path
that reaches from north to south
and East to west, the apple tree
is centre stage to every step.

Re-traced through fair trade routes,
Paper chased by three hares
that migrated on a fruit wood timber trail,
and left embossed impressions
of a three eared tale
that lend themselves to a listening ear.

“Here” is Alma-Ata,
With fruitful family branches
that reach up to the rarefied place
where the cloud base lifts
revealing, thin skirts of mist
that shroud the mother tree.

Eternity is firmly planted
in each and every apple seed--
once the flesh has been pierced,
peeled, sliced and cored.
Soon the mountains of Tian-Shan will shake
to the sound of green shoots
bursting though Eden’s gates.

[Todd]

Nice, okay so what did you take away from either of these poems.

Any new ideas? What did you like? What didn't you like?

Did it feel easier than your first draft?

[cidermaid]

(Been having trouble sleeping so your notes are keeping me company through the small hours – I lied about the going slow!)

I got a sense of the poem being more organic (I hate this sort of description but can’t think of a better word right now) – the poem had moments when it grew by it’s itself but I still felt in control of the process – like driving a corner in a performance car with opposite lock and more power. I actually found it very hard to “just write”. It would be fine for a couple of lines and then suddenly I would be tinkering and thinking about the plot and word choice again. So perhaps this is defiantly the right line to be taking in terms of a mentoring idea. (I guess I might even have subconsciously known this previously in that I picked a poem birthed out of the surreal project to be mentored on first). Over thinking and over working my poems is def a problem for me.
I am encouraged that my images are feeling more real and vivid. (Even though they are perhaps weaker in the sense that they do not carry so much weight – if that makes any sense to you). They might have less meaning but both poems felt better than the original to me. And yes they felt easier to write.

One of the things I have taken away from this exercise is something that TOMH used in his mentoring notes, namely the presence of key words or phrases which are crucial to the read / understanding. I get an impression from the two new poems that what I need to be able to do is to identify what images are most prominent (sort of hard wired) into my un-written poem. My current thought is that, if I can manage to get these down during the free write stage, then the poem will be better for it.

One aspect that surprised me was when I tried to write with one of the senses taken away. I found it really hard (Start of this idea below) and came to the conclusion that this was because the feel and sound and smell of the place were the strongest images and what I most wanted to be able to communicate (and thus this makes the journey / faith / Eden story / plot secondary). When I was free writing it is the idea of being in the woods that most captivates me. I did not plan to write prose and Haiku (effectively Haibun) it is just what happened when I focused on a sense being missing. Nature and how it surrounds me became the focus and the other aspects I had been thinking about got condensed into bullet points.

Remove one of the senses

Wandering along the trail
I can feel the rough strewn rocks
and roots that litter the floor of the forest.
Leafy letters crunch and rustle underfoot
and I am mindful of my guide, who labours
to one side, on the path less travelled.

A rocky road,
a blind guide --
Travelling light.

Each step away from Alma-Ata
takes me deeper into the wild woods.
The mountains in my mind are snow covered,
crisp and clear and yet the air upon my skin
is warm; alive with sound. Twigs with birds
tapping and frog popping fruit drops.

Outstretched limbs
the father’s arms--
Surround sound.

What do I like? / What’s new? (Ideas only, not necessarily the actual words)
Clustered family branches, Tight knitted communities, Frog popping fruit drops, Twigs with birds tapping, Blue print mother, Leafy letters, worm infested papaya sheets, rustle, shroud, Snow covered/ smothered. The mountains in my mind – like the idea of preconceived ideas being blown away. Surround sound, fruit wood trail, embossed impressions.
I also really like the whole hare thing, but not sure if it belongs in this poem, but equally not sure that slant / poem will work without the hares. (In fact the more I read it the more I like this poem).

[Todd]

What is true in writing fiction also applies to poetry. If you constrain everything too tightly in the first draft you will stifle the best work your mind can produce. You will miss the little associations. The imagery will feel forced. Stepping back and trying it from different angles will sometimes free your creative process.

The looking for key words ideas of Keith was exactly where I was going to go next. You've already started this. Now go back and consider each poem (the original also). This doesn't have to be exhaustive: What themes, phrases, ideas, images seem to come up more than others (not necessarily repetition). You're sort of treating your writing to the best of your ability as if you're the reader. You ask yourself, what's important to me here. Not what do I think is important to include, but what do I seem to be writing about that's important. Isolate those ideas next.

(AJ the poems are interesting drafts, and I think you're doing great)

[cidermaid]

Okay so I went through each and as best I am able took the words that gave the poem meaning & substance. Not sure that I was doing a very good job of separating the write from the read, but gave it a shot. (Kept the stanza and line layout so you could see where i had drawn the words from)

Pomology.
the beginning, Alma Ata, seed, branched, abundant springs.
Outstanding, wild woods, on the ridges, Tian Shan mountains, mother tree
Autumn
sweet, fragrance, forest, fermenting,
Pungent, thickets of apples, all directions, scent.
first fruit, Eden, flesh pierced, discarded.
fallen, plan, founding tree, descent,
from East to west, fruitful, eternity, final.

Exodus from Alma-Ata
Forests, Tian Shan Mountains, wild fruit trees, branches, families, seeds, break out, fragrant notes, blue print mother.
ridges, valleys, high reaches, tight knitted, arbours, sweet delight, first fruits, carried off,
De-fleshed, cast aside, seedlings, green leaves.
fallen, rejected, worm infested, premature, declining, The sound, thunder, pommice pits.

The last line to become the first line….
Here, eternity, final event, eternal loop, Self seeded, north to south, East to west, apple tree
trade routes, migrated, fruit wood, trail, impressions, listening.
Alma-Atta, fruitful family branches, mother tree.
Eternity, planted, seed, flesh, pierced, mountains of Tian-Shan, sound, green shoots, Eden’s gates.


Remove one of the senses
Wandering, trail, feel, rocks, litter the floor, forest, Leafy, crunch, rustle, labours, travelled.
Blind, light
away, Alma-Ata, deeper, wild woods, mountains in my mind, covered, crisp, clear, upon my skin, warm; alive, sound, fruit drops.
Outstretched limbs, Surround sound.

Words & ideas that are strong / persistent through collective writes.
I have to confess that I am finding it hard to sort through the combined lists. Although the poems are all written from the same base image /idea they each seem to have a separate identity – all of which now feel valid. Just saying the editing process is hard, you get attached to a certain line or phrase and walking away from them is not so easy…even when you know they do not fit or they are complete crap. (I’ve always had a heart for the broken and overlooked things in life – and I’m a bit of a hoarder!)

Got confused doing this so I ended up putting the ideas into sub-groups. (Note they are double listed if I felt they were used with a double meaning /as a metaphor).

The physical place / aspects of the area: –Alma-Atta, Tian Shan mountains, ridges, valley, wild woods, forest, a vast area.

Misc fruit trees / wood descriptors: –pear, plum peach, apricot (although on my read none of these felt important to the read).

Apple tree :-falling apples (many), dropping, decay, The process of being consumed – pierced, peeled, cored, branches, mother tree (blue print) – family branches, leaves, arbour, spliced (pleached), covering or canopy overhead image, a sense of scale – multiples so fruit tree forest or woods and these are untamed / wild. Thicket, intermingled. Seed, shoot, green leaves, regeneration. A spreading, migrating or populating image - global.

The senses: –sound, look, smell descriptors all linked to the fruit or tree related. (Although I highlighted the words on the individual poems as important, for this list it is more the image they carry rather than any one individual word hence I have not listed them here)

A journey: -Exploring / discovery, a path / road, wondering, beginning, an end.

Metaphors for life /spiritual aspects: -Eden (Tian Shan mountains), eternity (a loop), green shoots, springs, a plan, fallen, pierced flesh, seed. Mother tree. Mountains or high ridges & valleys. A final event. Decay a pit. A journey with a beginning and a final event and divergent or different path options within this.

Overall and looking at it now, I would say it is the progression of the story that is standing out to me as the key element of the poem. (and one of my problems with the poem has perhaps occurred to me – this poem is jumping from past/ present to future within the story conception ideas).
Start in Eden / Tian-Shan mountains. Mother tree / family. (Big picture past & present image).

A sense of scale…big family! (Present image)
A look at the details - beauty, abundance, pleasure. (Perceived through the senses – a now image)
A migration and a look at the process of transport. The path. (Past image)
A sense of all is not well – decay and de-fleshing, death. (on going image)
A rebirth, new growth, return to Eden. (A future image)

(But then immediately I look at this list and think I am back to over processing and sucking the life out of the poem – I think I am stuck in a loop here and perhaps have missed what I am meant to be doing at this stage).

[tectak]

Okay so I went through each and as best I am able took the words that gave the poem meaning & substance. Not sure that I was doing a very good job of separating the write from the read, but gave it a shot. (Kept the stanza and line layout so you could see where i had drawn the words from)

Pomology.
the beginning, Alma Ata, seed, branched, abundant springs.
Outstanding, wild woods, on the ridges, Tian Shan mountains, mother tree
Autumn
sweet, fragrance, forest, fermenting,
Pungent, thickets of apples, all directions, scent.
first fruit, Eden, flesh pierced, discarded.
fallen, plan, founding tree, descent,
from East to west, fruitful, eternity, final.

Exodus from Alma-Ata
Forests, Tian Shan Mountains, wild fruit trees, branches, families, seeds, break out, fragrant notes, blue print mother.
ridges, valleys, high reaches, tight knitted, arbours, sweet delight, first fruits, carried off,
De-fleshed, cast aside, seedlings, green leaves.
fallen, rejected, worm infested, premature, declining, The sound, thunder, pommice pits.

The last line to become the first line….
Here, eternity, final event, eternal loop, Self seeded, north to south, East to west, apple tree
trade routes, migrated, fruit wood, trail, impressions, listening.
Alma-Atta, fruitful family branches, mother tree.
Eternity, planted, seed, flesh, pierced, mountains of Tian-Shan, sound, green shoots, Eden’s gates.


Remove one of the senses
Wandering, trail, feel, rocks, litter the floor, forest, Leafy, crunch, rustle, labours, travelled.
Blind, light
away, Alma-Ata, deeper, wild woods, mountains in my mind, covered, crisp, clear, upon my skin, warm; alive, sound, fruit drops.
Outstretched limbs, Surround sound.

Words & ideas that are strong / persistent through collective writes.
I have to confess that I am finding it hard to sort through the combined lists. Although the poems are all written from the same base image /idea they each seem to have a separate identity – all of which now feel valid. Just saying the editing process is hard, you get attached to a certain line or phrase and walking away from them is not so easy…even when you know they do not fit or they are complete crap. (I’ve always had a heart for the broken and overlooked things in life – and I’m a bit of a hoarder!)

Got confused doing this so I ended up putting the ideas into sub-groups. (Note they are double listed if I felt they were used with a double meaning /as a metaphor).

The physical place / aspects of the area: –Alma-Atta, Tian Shan mountains, ridges, valley, wild woods, forest, a vast area.

Misc fruit trees / wood descriptors: –pear, plum peach, apricot (although on my read none of these felt important to the read).

Apple tree :-falling apples (many), dropping, decay, The process of being consumed – pierced, peeled, cored, branches, mother tree (blue print) – family branches, leaves, arbour, spliced (pleached), covering or canopy overhead image, a sense of scale – multiples so fruit tree forest or woods and these are untamed / wild. Thicket, intermingled. Seed, shoot, green leaves, regeneration. A spreading, migrating or populating image - global.

The senses: –sound, look, smell descriptors all linked to the fruit or tree related. (Although I highlighted the words on the individual poems as important, for this list it is more the image they carry rather than any one individual word hence I have not listed them here)

A journey: -Exploring / discovery, a path / road, wondering, beginning, an end.

Metaphors for life /spiritual aspects: -Eden (Tian Shan mountains), eternity (a loop), green shoots, springs, a plan, fallen, pierced flesh, seed. Mother tree. Mountains or high ridges & valleys. A final event. Decay a pit. A journey with a beginning and a final event and divergent or different path options within this.

Overall and looking at it now, I would say it is the progression of the story that is standing out to me as the key element of the poem. (and one of my problems with the poem has perhaps occurred to me – this poem is jumping from past/ present to future within the story conception ideas).
Start in Eden / Tian-Shan mountains. Mother tree / family. (Big picture past & present image).

A sense of scale…big family! (Present image)
A look at the details - beauty, abundance, pleasure. (Perceived through the senses – a now image)
A migration and a look at the process of transport. The path. (Past image)
A sense of all is not well – decay and de-fleshing, death. (on going image)
A rebirth, new growth, return to Eden. (A future image)

(But then immediately I look at this list and think I am back to over processing and sucking the life out of the poem – I think I am stuck in a loop here and perhaps have missed what I am meant to be doing at this stage).

Agreed Go with Todd.
Best and glad you are back,
tectak

[Todd]

Alison, Thanks for all that. Give a glance to what you wrote like they might be cliff notes I see Alma Ata, I get the apple, a sense of journey, and your life metaphors. Now I'm going to go to each poem and highlight purely subjectively what I felt were the strongest sections of each poem.

Not so that you can put them together, but just so you can reflect on theme and execution.

~~~

Others lie where they have fallen,
rejected and forgotten
in worm infested papaya sheets.
Bedded down in a premature
state of declining wealth.
The sound of falling apples
is echoed in the thunder clouds
that gather over the pommice pits.

~~~

Eternity is firmly planted
in each and every apple seed--
once the flesh has been pierced,
peeled, sliced and cored.
Soon the mountains of Tian-Shan will shake
to the sound of green shoots
bursting though Eden’s gates.

~~~
Each step away from Alma-Ata
takes me deeper into the wild woods.
The mountains in my mind are snow covered,
crisp and clear and yet the air upon my skin
is warm; alive with sound. Twigs with birds
tapping and frog popping fruit drops.

Outstretched limbs
the father’s arms--
Surround sound.

~~~

While I chose a larger section of the final poem, it seems that your endings keyed the most strongly with me. I think it's because when we write like this we are often trying to get to the poem.

I've started many poems where I've thought, "I'm going to write about THIS." This became more mechanical, and as I searched through the lines I found that I actually wanted to write about something similar but not quite what I thought. I reserve the right to revisit the idea or nuance to explore, but I end up writing the poem I'm actually writing. If that makes any sense at all.

When I reread your perfectly good first effort now. I think man there's a lot more life in some of these other drafts. We either need to figure out how to inject it back, or develop some of these other strains.

I could be off though, it not a mechanical process.

What are your thoughts at this point?

[cidermaid]

Todd. First off, I really liked the idea of the selection you had highlighted. To my read it turns the whole poem from being locked into a narrative over, so that it does not dominate or suffocate the read. Also totally agree about the later drafts having more life in them.

I am not sure why I have got myself into a loop over the idea of writing so closely to the original images.

I have two ways in which I write -
1. Find a prompt and free write – and then play pick up sticks with the individual lines (re-shuffle them). Spend days trying to fine tune.
2. Find a prompt, think about / choose a form that will enhance or strengthen the concept idea. Free write individual lines and then slot them into the form and adjust the meter / rhyme or other form considerations on a line by line process.
Thinking I might need to go back through these poems and play pick up sticks with the lines that I have and see what comes out of this. (This is what your selection feels like to me, and I am liking the direction this is taking).
Will wait and see if you have a different suggestion or course / direction before I do any further work on this

Meanwhile I also wanted to do the final prompt and try a write with a different voice. (really proud of myself have managed to resist the temptation to do any editing at all before I post – progress I think!

Foreign imports

It is said that the valleys are full
and the high ridges resound
with pernicious avalanches
of fresh fruit.
Each year the wave of advance
creeps ever closer.

From the Tian Shan Mountain ranges
the immigrants,
with their perfect form
and subtle shades,
are planted on our shores.

Fools!
For every one you let in
ten more will set seed.
Perky and fresh; oozing
goodness that dribbles
and drips from parted lips.

Heavens!
Are the foothills of civilisation
to be forever polluted
by the corrupt flesh
of the polluted pommice pits?

It is said, that it is better yet
a mercy – a grace,
to crush and pour out
their cup of hope,
than let to let the shoot take root.
Let them lie where they fall,
a libation for worms and swine feed.

[Todd]

It is progress. I'd encourage you to take the next step you've considered. Continue to resist tight plotting. It is the death of creativity--it will restrict you when you most need to stay open. It is true in fiction and poetry. I'll post more later.

Best,

Todd

[cidermaid]

Right this is where my 1st shuffle of the pack has taken me. Often the shuffling process takes several turns before i am even vuagly satisfied. (Think I am still fiddling and trying to over adjust - just the same as in the car, any fiddling always results in it going horribly wrong...and there is always a temptation to take your foot off the power pedal...but thought i would post the first effort for your consideration). There is always a certain amount of editing to make the lines read and make sense, but I have tried to limit it at this stage.

1st shuffle.
Outstanding in the forest
the mother tree lives in the wild woods,
on the ridges of the Tian Shan mountains,
where Eternity is firmly planted
in each and every apple seed.
In the beginning
the sound of falling apples
was echoed in the thunder clouds
that gathered over the pommice pits.

De-fleshed a core of new growth
is casually cast aside, to lie
rough strewn between the rocks and roots,
amongst the leafy shadows that rustle underfoot.
Others lie where they have fallen,
on foreign shores, rejected and forgotten
in worm infested papaya sheets.

Streams of liquid hope flow
from here to eternity across the forest floor.
Once firm flesh is pierced and peeled.
Crushed, the goodness oozes out;
piquant it drips from parted lips,
concentrated drops of guilt.
A wooden migration that illuminates
the trail from here to there.

“Here” is Alma-Atta.
where the mountains in my mind
are snow covered and the final event
is an eternal loop of pale blushing blooms
mingled with the scented ferment of declining wealth.
The air is crisp and clear, yet warm;
alive with surround sound, as the harvest
beds itself in with frog popping fruit drops.

From the fecund heart,
thickets of out stretched limbs
radiated out in all directions.
Soon the mountains of Tian-Shan will shake
to the sound of green shoots
bursting though Eden’s gates.

[Todd]

I love the first effort. I'm going to do something I wouldn't do in a critique much. I'm mostly going to ask you to consider why certain things HAVE to be in the poem. I'm not asking you to agree, conform, or adopt any change that I suggest. I'm just asking you to consider them. My comments below (the poem is developing nicely. More importantly, i hope the process of going through this is helping your approach. Here goes:

Right this is where my 1st shuffle of the pack has taken me. Often the shuffling process takes several turns before i am even vuagly satisfied. (Think I am still fiddling and trying to over adjust - just the same as in the car, any fiddling always results in it going horribly wrong...and there is always a temptation to take your foot off the power pedal...but thought i would post the first effort for your consideration). There is always a certain amount of editing to make the lines read and make sense, but I have tried to limit it at this stage.

1st shuffle.
Outstanding in the forest
the mother tree lives in the wild woods,--why not start here?
on the ridges of the Tian Shan mountains,
where Eternity is firmly planted--Nice way to ground a concept like eternity
in each and every apple seed.--I always wonder about this each and every construction I can live with it but what does it give you that every doesn't supply?
In the beginning
the sound of falling apples
was echoed in the thunder clouds
that gathered over the pommice pits.--I very much like this progression. I don't think you need "that" but THAT is my only real nit. This is a much stronger opening than your original. It's got a smooth flow to it. I like your shifting in verb tense throughout, and I'm fine with moving in the beginning down a few lines.

De-fleshed a core of new growth
is casually cast aside, to lie--casually avoid the adverb if you can and find a way to convey it in the verb directly. If you can't you can't but try. Cast aside by whom?
rough strewn between the rocks and roots,--like the alliteration and assonance
amongst the leafy shadows that rustle underfoot.--This just sounds primordial. Lovely line really
Others lie where they have fallen,
on foreign shores, rejected and forgotten--Ask yourself if you need both of these words? Challenge yourself to cut one or replace both?
in worm infested papaya sheets.--Nice image

Streams of liquid hope flow--liquid hope isn't enough. I need something more concrete to ground it
from here to eternity across the forest floor.--The movie title would have me cut that phrase. The repetition of eternity so soon doesn't work for me either
Once firm flesh is pierced and peeled.--If you leave off peeled you could give a crucifixion image (not sure you want that just bringing it up.
Crushed, the goodness oozes out;
piquant it drips from parted lips,
concentrated drops of guilt.
A wooden migration that illuminates
the trail from here to there.--No issues with the rest of this on a first read through

“Here” is Alma-Atta.
where the mountains in my mind--Pulls me out of the scene. Limits your authority. Make us believe
are snow covered and the final event
is an eternal loop of pale blushing blooms--instead of eternal again maybe replace eternal loop with "a mobius strip" Just looking for a substitute. Here's the thing Alison, and pick up on this: You've mentioned eternity three times so far. This is part of what is important to you that you're trying to convey. This ties into your motivation for writing. You can still cut the word but pay attention to the why behind it, if that makes sense
mingled with the scented ferment of declining wealth.
The air is crisp and clear, yet warm;--You could tie the air into the crisp bite of an apple somehow. Clear yet warm just a lot of modifiers--cut where you can
alive with surround sound, as the harvest--surround sound to me feels too electronic
beds itself in with frog popping fruit drops.--Love this phrasing

From the fecund heart,
thickets of out stretched limbs
radiated out in all directions.--I feel like you can go with "radiate"
Soon the mountains of Tian-Shan will shake
to the sound of green shoots
bursting though Eden’s gates.--Like the ending

This is a really strong "first" draft with a lot of work behind it. Look over what I've mentioned, and see what you think. Reactions?

Thanks,

Todd

[cidermaid]

Hi Todd,

A bit of confused communication going on (from my end most likely).
I had thought I was still in the just write / crap stage and had taken this concept into my line shuffling exercise.
My initial reaction is that as a 1st shuffle (as opposed to a 1st draft that could be shown to someone) it is no where near ready to start any editing, I still feel that there are lines in the wrong place....let me do a few more shuffles before I commit to anything.

But having got the knee jerk out of the way, I am more than happy to go down the path you have directed...this is about changing my writing habits and learning some new skills so lets see where restricting the number of shuffles and playing with a first shuffle takes me. I'll go away and have a think through your points.

Just want to say how fantastic this experiance has been and how greatful I am for all of your time and input. It has all been a huge help in so many ways - not just for my writing.

---

Back again. This has been a definate random burst experiance and so i've not allowed myself to sit and overly think what I have got down. I just read each line with your comments and went with the first creative thought that came and the draft below is the result. so still not much fine tuning gone into this but I like where it has gone so far.

1st shuffle / 1st draft.

The mother tree lives in the wild woods,
on the ridges of the Tian Shan mountains,
where Eternity is firmly planted
in each unique apple seed.
In the beginning
the sound of falling apples
was echoed in the thunder clouds
gathered over the pommice pits .

De-fleshed a core of potential
is tossed aside by tourists,
rough strewn between the rocks and roots,
amongst the leafy shadows that rustle underfoot.
Others have fallen on foreign shores;
they die of de-hydration
in worm infested papaya sheets.

Golden streams trace the forest floor,
trampled by an army of willing arms
that wait on the descent to do the trade.
Once firm flesh is pierced and cut.
Crushed, the goodness oozes out;
piquant it drips from parted lips,
concentrated drops of guilt.
A wooden migration that illuminates
the trail from here to there.

“Here” is Alma-Atta.
where the mountains are snow covered,
and the final event is a mobius strip
of pale, blushing blooms tinged
with the scented ferment of declining wealth.
The air, crisp and clear, crunches with sound
pregnant with life as the harvest
beds itself in with frog popping fruit drops.

From the fecund heart,
thickets of out stretched limbs
radiate out in all directions.
Soon the mountains of Tian-Shan will shake
to the sound of green shoots
bursting though Eden’s gates.