Why workshop?

[Leanne]

Poets are funny creatures. Some get very worried about using the advice given to them by others, in case it could be seen as stealing someone else's words, or making the poem no longer their own. I think we probably all start out like that, very certain that our poetic integrity depends on using only our own original thoughts and composition, but think about that for a minute: which part of a poem is our own, originally?

The words certainly aren't. They've come to us from countless generations, always being modified, added to, altered in meaning, a set of tools undergoing constant repair and adjustment. The semiotics are culturally agreed upon, though with subtle shifts from person to person (sometimes even mood to mood). The structure of the language isn't ours -- even when we subvert it or break the rules, we can only do so successfully because those rules exist and are understood by our audience. Rhyme, meter, assonance, alliteration -- all techniques passed down through the centuries.

Say you're a painter, who studied extensively at university, maybe even apprenticed under some great master -- you know what you're doing and you do it well, but if you do it in a vacuum that's all you will ever know or do about your art. Do you suppose that an accomplished painter, offered a new way to create texture or show light, would reject the technique because it wasn't his/her own invention? Would he/she disdain a new brush because it came from another's hand?

The hand that paints the poem is always the poet's. All a workshop offers is ideas, new perspectives, alternative techniques, different experiences, a body of knowledge that is freely shared -- yes, that's all. Nothing useful. Nothing that you need at all, if all you want to do is showcase your poetry -- you only need Facebook for that.

[abu nuwas]

Some of that may be true, Leanne, but I am not sure your analogy with a painter is a good one. Yes, Old Masters, used to be not unlike joiners, and leave the routine stuff to the pupils and apprentices. Yet, if I paint some red in the centre of a canvas, and then listen to various passers-by, and other fellows with berets, and before long I have wiped off the red, and it has been replaced--yes, by me -- with a picture of a Spitfire and Golden Retriever both flying over Brisbane, is it not just a testament to my weakness of mind, that I have been so easily influenced? Is it not true that, the more ideas, perspectives etc, which a person adopts, and the more their own effort changes, the less it is their own? If I write 40 lines, and you and others suggest a new 39 lines, surely that is not mine, but yours --- even though it be the finest poem ever written? Is there a difference between workshoping and writing by committee? The kind of thing the Soviet Union of Writers might have approved? I don't do Facebook, but i don't think people's wish to publish in electronic or other form, what they have written, is reprehensible, and I would not want people to be put off by a perceived elitism.

Otherwise, I agree with every word you write!

[Wildcard]

   IMO workshopping may yield something better than a good poem of unclear origin. While I agree that the artist must keep her/his voice in tact and have the mental capacity to be the master of their own work, I can't see how using suggestions could compromise that notion. If I write a poem and let my wife (or my mother or anyone) read it, I'm doing so to judge their reaction and possibly garner their criticism. What is the difference?
   Instead of picking biased test subjects with very little understanding of the art, the workshop provides more knowledgeable readers on different levels of poetic discovery. The advice and suggestions of these fellow poets stands a higher chance of being valuable - and keep in mind that the only hand that ever actually makes changes to the work is yours. Still exercising that poetic voice . . .

It might seemed 'weak-minded' to change your words, but like Leanne said, were they ever your words to begin with?

[abu nuwas]

I think that the idea that words are not mine, is a red herring. You would have to apply that to everything in the Universe. Michelangelo might have done his best, some other guy comes up and says he made a mess of the proportions, but,fortunately, he has some ready-sculpted stuff 'off the peg'. Michelangelo admires the 'off the off the peg'. David, but remonstrates, saying that it would not be his, even if it is better. 'That stone is not yours , anyway' says his mate, 'Go on!' And perhaps in Florence now, that is what we see: not the one Michelangelo did, but the one he bought from Sr Walmarto.

It is incontestable that if,say, your wife writes half of your poem, then she should be credited as co-author. After that, it becomes a question of degree.

Obviously, there are things which only a fool would hang on to. Criticism has a second, and very valuable, function. It may be that a person will , for whatever reason, perhaps childishly, refuse to make any changes. I have often suggested that a thing be completely recast,for example, from free verse to meter and rhyme of some kind. Even if they do not do it, it may be that the next time, they will incorporate that into what they do. Perhaps that is no better than adopting other people's suggestions whole-sale, but I know I am like that, and certainly, you are dead right about there being some knowledgeable people on here, not least Leanne, but also several others.

[Wildcard]

In songwriting, if another writer, regardless of experience, helps you to finish a song they are credited with half royalties and co-ownership of the publishing rights. Is it not done so with poetry? However, if your buddy helps you find that word you were looking for to perfect a song, he isn't entitled to royalties or rights to the work, is he? Wasn't it always the right word before he said it? Did he invent the word? Wasn't the word always in your head, waiting to be remembered?

In a critique of one of my poems, Contrast, Leanne remarked that two of the lines served the poem better by being together. It was such a 'duh!' moment for me because it made such a better impact and represented my vision better. It's true that I didn't think of it until she mentioned it, but that doesn't mean I would have never changed it on my own. As I learn more about poetry and train my eye and mind, there is always the chance my study would've revealed that this simple change was needed. So, in effect, all Leanne did was spur me on down the road a little faster . . . she didn't exactly steer me, just a nudge.

[abu nuwas]

Well, whatever, I like the idea of your 'nudges'; it does depend, for me, on the size of the stuff nudged, but we could go on about that forever, since there is no striking dividing line. As for music....yes, the law of Intellectual Property is the same, but I was speaking yesterday with a man who calls himself a Legend, a singer/song-writer/guitarist, and his view was more like Leanne's: the Court may have to decide whether 6 bars is sufficient, but in truth, everyone has been learning from, borrowing from, and stealing from, everyone else forever. It will be a happy day when I go to the High Court to complain about, or defend, some plagirism!

[Wildcard]

Exactly! I would love to have stuff good enough that someone would want to steal it. :p

[writeitout]

Poets are funny creatures. Some get very worried about using the advice given to them by others, in case it could be seen as stealing someone else's words, or making the poem no longer their own. I think we probably all start out like that, very certain that our poetic integrity depends on using only our own original thoughts and composition, but think about that for a minute: which part of a poem is our own, originally?

The words certainly aren't. They've come to us from countless generations, always being modified, added to, altered in meaning, a set of tools undergoing constant repair and adjustment. The semiotics are culturally agreed upon, though with subtle shifts from person to person (sometimes even mood to mood). The structure of the language isn't ours -- even when we subvert it or break the rules, we can only do so successfully because those rules exist and are understood by our audience. Rhyme, meter, assonance, alliteration -- all techniques passed down through the centuries.

Say you're a painter, who studied extensively at university, maybe even apprenticed under some great master -- you know what you're doing and you do it well, but if you do it in a vacuum that's all you will ever know or do about your art. Do you suppose that an accomplished painter, offered a new way to create texture or show light, would reject the technique because it wasn't his/her own invention? Would he/she disdain a new brush because it came from another's hand?

The hand that paints the poem is always the poet's. All a workshop offers is ideas, new perspectives, alternative techniques, different experiences, a body of knowledge that is freely shared -- yes, that's all. Nothing useful. OMENO Nothing that you need at all, if all you want to do is showcase your poetry -- you only need Facebook for that.

WOMEN OF SEASON

WE conducted a workshop for teen poets on this Saturday past. Workshops are always a positive component for the development of the artist, and it keeps the Arts communicative.

---

Poets are funny creatures. Some get very worried about using the advice given to them by others, in case it could be seen as stealing someone else's words, or making the poem no longer their own. I think we probably all start out like that, very certain that our poetic integrity depends on using only our own original thoughts and composition, but think about that for a minute: which part of a poem is our own, originally?

The words certainly aren't. They've come to us from countless generations, always being modified, added to, altered in meaning, a set of tools undergoing constant repair and adjustment. The semiotics are culturally agreed upon, though with subtle shifts from person to person (sometimes even mood to mood). The structure of the language isn't ours -- even when we subvert it or break the rules, we can only do so successfully because those rules exist and are understood by our audience. Rhyme, meter, assonance, alliteration -- all techniques passed down through the centuries.

Say you're a painter, who studied extensively at university, maybe even apprenticed under some great master -- you know what you're doing and you do it well, but if you do it in a vacuum that's all you will ever know or do about your art. Do you suppose that an accomplished painter, offered a new way to create texture or show light, would reject the technique because it wasn't his/her own invention? Would he/she disdain a new brush because it came from another's hand?

The hand that paints the poem is always the poet's. All a workshop offers is ideas, new perspectives, alternative techniques, different experiences, a body of knowledge that is freely shared -- yes, that's all. Nothing useful. OMENO Nothing that you need at all, if all you want to do is showcase your poetry -- you only need Facebook for that.

WOMEN OF SEASON

WE conducted a workshop for teen poets on this Saturday past. Workshops are always a positive component for the development of the artist, and it keeps the Arts communicative.

Uggghhh... Everytime I send someone to the site I realize it needs to be updated. LOL

[billy]

for me, a suggestion is an experience, something we're taught about, we use or discard as we see fit; the way we do with all our experiences. da vince; while he may of took his own council, i'm sure that would be tru only as accomplished artist. even then he would have taken instruction. as a younger artist he would like all craftspersons been learning his trade, :fuck off leo, what's the opposite of green?" leo replies, "oh right, i should of thought of that" in poetry workshopping, we still learning, even some who may have been published. as we progress, we hopefully need less of an edit, but invariably we do need edits. often when words are suggested as a change, i'll try and find my own instead. if on the other hand it's a meter change that's suggested in a formed poem, i'll usally take the suggestion if i agree with it. if i'm not sure, i ask why it should be such and such way.

let's not forget that many poets in workshops, really are still at the learning stage, i know i am. what will i learn if no one makes suggestions or tells me where they thing i went wrong. as abu stated. people will want to repain the whole of my words, and that too would be okay if i so wished it to be, using MY choice) workshopping is a tool, not to use it wisely would be silly.

[Aish]

I find workshopping to be a wonderful tool. It helps a writer gauge how the reader is receiving his/her efforts. For beginning writers it also helps one develop a sense of how to polish a piece of writing and break away from cliches. For someone dedicated to the craft of poetry, the experiences and fine tuning learned through a constructive workshop environment are an invaluable resource.

[Leanne]

Yet, if I paint some red in the centre of a canvas, and then listen to various passers-by, and other fellows with berets, and before long I have wiped off the red, and it has been replaced--yes, by me -- with a picture of a Spitfire and Golden Retriever both flying over Brisbane, is it not just a testament to my weakness of mind, that I have been so easily influenced? Is it not true that, the more ideas, perspectives etc, which a person adopts, and the more their own effort changes, the less it is their own? If I write 40 lines, and you and others suggest a new 39 lines, surely that is not mine, but yours --- even though it be the finest poem ever written?

That would indeed be a testament to your weakness of mind, dear sir! I dispute that it's ever the intention of a workshop environment to produce poetry-by-committee, the very idea of which is anathema to me and although I see the distinction quite clearly, I am sure that my explanation will meet -- in the mind of someone who stolidly objects to workshopping -- with pedantry and the insistence that he/she is the one true originator of his/her genius. However, I shall give it a shot.

A committee, one presumes, would reach its result by consensus or some sort of discussion and acceptance process. In Japanese renga societies, arguments could rage for weeks or even years over the use of a single image -- though that is more a collaborative society than a committee. In a workshop, however, the poet remains in the position of supreme dictator. It is expected that in the early days of writing, he/she will be uncertain of his/her abilities, limited by experience and more reliant on advisors; however, as confidence grows and the knowledge base increases (thanks to those advisors, who in a good workshop environment will seek no recognition or power of their own), the decisions the poet makes will be more assured, more defined and individual. It is this autonomy that a workshop hopes to develop in a poet -- although autonomy doesn't mean you've learned everything there is to know about everything, and a smart writer will always listen to the opinions of his/her audience. Not be swayed by them, necessarily, but at least be open. And further, in a workshop it's expected that once you know something, you'll pass it on to the next person who might not know, so that the pool of knowledge is continually expanding.

To learn and then refuse to teach others is selfish and vile.

[abu nuwas]

Yet, if I paint some red in the centre of a canvas, and then listen to various passers-by, and other fellows with berets, and before long I have wiped off the red, and it has been replaced--yes, by me -- with a picture of a Spitfire and Golden Retriever both flying over Brisbane, is it not just a testament to my weakness of mind, that I have been so easily influenced? Is it not true that, the more ideas, perspectives etc, which a person adopts, and the more their own effort changes, the less it is their own? If I write 40 lines, and you and others suggest a new 39 lines, surely that is not mine, but yours --- even though it be the finest poem ever written?

That would indeed be a testament to your weakness of mind, dear sir! I dispute that it's ever the intention of a workshop environment to produce poetry-by-committee, the very idea of which is anathema to me and although I see the distinction quite clearly, I am sure that my explanation will meet -- in the mind of someone who stolidly objects to workshopping -- with pedantry and the insistence that he/she is the one true originator of his/her genius. However, I shall give it a shot.

A committee, one presumes, would reach its result by consensus or some sort of discussion and acceptance process. In Japanese renga societies, arguments could rage for weeks or even years over the use of a single image -- though that is more a collaborative society than a committee. In a workshop, however, the poet remains in the position of supreme dictator. It is expected that in the early days of writing, he/she will be uncertain of his/her abilities, limited by experience and more reliant on advisors; however, as confidence grows and the knowledge base increases (thanks to those advisors, who in a good workshop environment will seek no recognition or power of their own), the decisions the poet makes will be more assured, more defined and individual. It is this autonomy that a workshop hopes to develop in a poet -- although autonomy doesn't mean you've learned everything there is to know about everything, and a smart writer will always listen to the opinions of his/her audience. Not be swayed by them, necessarily, but at least be open. And further, in a workshop it's expected that once you know something, you'll pass it on to the next person who might not know, so that the pool of knowledge is continually expanding.

To learn and then refuse to teach others is selfish and vile.

I have just seen this, and perhaps should let Leanne's silvery tongue to do its job. I am,after all, sufficiently weak-minded that I felt a need afterwards to do a water-colour of Baron Thingummy and his handsome red tri-plance, with a Bleriot passing near, but no Retriever.

Novices/students are (or should be) open to ideas; but so are intellectuals -- you know, the type who live in France or Germany. They believe something firmly, until someone gives them reasons for thinking something different. I know that, because the Fuhrer said so.

Although Leanne holds the door open to the knowledgeable, experienced poet still taking advice, there is a strong suggestion that even he will have reached that awful 'stolid state physics'. I find a certain irony in that.

In truth, I do not think there is any contradiction. It is plainly true that if someone else suggests most of your poem, then it is largely theirs; but it is equally true that good critique is invaluable, and gives insights we might never have had otherwise, regarding technique, and, I have noticed, perfectly reasonable understandings which I simply had not realised -- in other words, if I do not wish for ambiguity, I must alter.

[Aish]

I don't think workshopping is geared toward tidal sized shifts in any one's work. I welcome crit, not only so I know the pieces I put up are well received, but to help hone my craft. I am not really being malleable, I am certainly not allowing someone else to write entire strophes for me. But if it is pointed out that one word choice is superior to another, or a word could be removed, or my rhythm is faulty, etc - then I am going to take that advice.

When writing books editors do the same thing all the time.

[abu nuwas]

That makes sense. I certainly find, and it is a queer business, that if I have set out to do something metrical, I shall often see, when pointed out, that, something actually doesn't go at all, although I had thought it was just right, or convinced myself it was. Whether it proves to be fixable is another matter!

[Ca ne fait rien]

There survives a manuscript draft of Wilfred Owen's 'Anthem for doomed youth' with amendments by Siegfied Sassoon- I have a book containing a facsimile of it - the original is , I think, in the Brtish Museum. As far as I am aware, the poem is attributed solely to Owen.

IMO there is a difference between someone completely rewriting a poem and suggesting amendments and alterations whch may or may not be implemented verbatim.

[Leanne]

I must have a look for that MS, it would definitely be interesting.

I would never even consider claiming credit for any suggestions I made in a workshop (though if the poem was successful, I'm vain enough to think -- in the privacy of my own ego -- it was because of me!) Throughout history, poets and other artists have worked together, feeding off one another's ideas -- we don't get to do the coffee shop thing much these days, being rather more isolated, so this is as close as we come.

[abu nuwas]

Now this has set me a'thinking. I have a facsimile of Brooke's 'The Soldier' with a few scratchings out, and changes. Now as my father and he were friends, I think I'll look it up --- in fact, come to think of it, I'm pretty sure it was my father's writing -yes, definitely. So, in a sense, mine really -- but damn! The copyright must have run out.......

[billy]

There survives a manuscript draft of Wilfred Owen's 'Anthem for doomed youth' with amendments by Siegfied Sassoon- I have a book containing a facsimile of it - the original is , I think, in the Brtish Museum. As far as I am aware, the poem is attributed solely to Owen.

IMO there is a difference between someone completely rewriting a poem and suggesting amendments and alterations whch may or may not be implemented verbatim.

unless they had permission that could only happen today if it were out of copyright or if they had permission. (i'm pretty sure.) so the manusript would have to be 70 years older than the dead person
or in a non member of the Bern treaty

[abu nuwas]

There survives a manuscript draft of Wilfred Owen's 'Anthem for doomed youth' with amendments by Siegfied Sassoon- I have a book containing a facsimile of it - the original is , I think, in the Brtish Museum. As far as I am aware, the poem is attributed solely to Owen.

IMO there is a difference between someone completely rewriting a poem and suggesting amendments and alterations whch may or may not be implemented verbatim.

unless they had permission that could only happen today if it were out of copyright or if they had permission. (i'm pretty sure.) so the manusript would have to be 70 years older than the dead person
or in a non member of the Bern treaty

I obtained copies of various unpublished papers from the Archivist at Brooke's college, which actually belong to the estate, after signing my life away that I would not reproduce. Not actually a copyright thing, though.