Men don't cry (1975)

[plsgoawaywhoisthis]

they said real men don't cry
so they shipped them to Nam
dropped them in jungles
and told them, stay calm

m-16s in trembling hands
mud up to the knees
mosquito bites and blood and sweat
god, it ate them piece by piece

"agent orange won't hurt you"
they swore through their teeth
while men watched the jungle die
and coughed beneath

hueys cut the sky in half
radio static and gunfire laugh
boys barely twenty
faces gone gray
another body bag
another day

"charlies close", the sgt. said
eyes so wide in the tet sun
so they lit the trees with napalm rain
and called the duty done

saigon on fire
mothers screaming in smoke
somewhere a kid's photograph
burned inside a coat

they came home to stares
not medals or cheers
just silence
and nightmares that lasted years

whiskey and pills to drown the hum
wives who slept beside a shell
kids who learn that men don't tell

the wars long done
but in the breath of their pores
in shaky herds and broken tones

they said real men don't cry
but they do
they just do it
where no one can see through

[dukealien]

they said real men don't cry
so they shipped them to Nam
dropped them in jungles
and told them, stay calm  the confusion of one "they" with another is not obvious at first, but on second thought, could be meaningful:  those who'd already gone and not (overtly) cried, believed what they asserted?

m-16s in trembling hands
mud up to the knees
mosquito bites and blood and sweat
god, it ate them piece by piece  this is a good way to do rhyme:  once per stanza, avoids forcing.  Good.

"agent orange won't hurt you"  if you were capitalizing at all, Agent Orange deserves it (proper name)
they swore through their teeth  nice alternative and reference to cliche "lied through..."
while men watched the jungle die
and coughed beneath

hueys cut the sky in half  a distant reference to a Huey's two-bladed main rotor?  But basically, this is a clumsy front anchor to the following rhyme
radio static and gunfire laugh  a brilliant line, maybe you should just lose the preceding one
boys barely twenty
faces gone gray
another body bag
another day  good, original reversal of cliche "another... another" format with the double beat on the second line

"charlies close", the sgt. said
eyes so wide in the tet sun
so they lit the trees with napalm rain  this line and the previous need work - start by removing "the" ?
and called the duty done  have to agree with "the" here because conventional "their" would break message

saigon on fire
mothers screaming in smoke
somewhere a kid's photograph
burned inside a coat  I interpret this as an actual occurrence, so stet.  Might try to tell better, but not too artistic.

they came home to stares
not medals or cheers  there were medals, but no cheers - the medals, perhaps, mis-distributed
just silence
and nightmares that lasted years  this is accurate and rhymes, but does not satisfy.  Not sure why.

whiskey and pills to drown the hum
wives who slept beside a shell  very nice, especially if "shell" also implies unexploded munition
kids who learn that men don't tell  referring back to those who claimed men don't cry (either).  Should be "learned?"

the wars long done  your grammar normal elsewhere, so "war's" here (with apostrophe)
but in the breath of their pores  dynamite line - the smell of fear
in shaky herds and broken tones

they said real men don't cry
but they do
they just do it
where no one can see through  that is, they don't tell - the veil that takes the place of tears

---

In intensive critique, this is a little rougher than newbies' posts might otherwise receive.  But the work can stand it.

The interlinear comments above are pretty detailed, so just in general:  you're writing in third person, so you can be artistic rather than telegraphic, and correct grammar is appropriate.  You're not trying to transcribe the immediate feelings of a participant in the Vietnam war, but to comment on their situation at the time and later.  

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with being telegraphic and hard-bitten:  you can be speaking in the voice of a veteran trying to write from a viable remove.  That's not the same as being bitter, which may feel right but turn the reader off; sympathy must be earned.

What I'm not getting here is that it's old soldiers who tell the new ones it isn't manly to cry.  They're not being hypocritical - maybe they didn't, and still don't, and sleep nights.  Or at least wake up shaking, then roll over - just another one of those flashbacks.  That may be a big step too far, like mentioning that many smokers never get cancer and live long lives enjoying the weed:  it's just too complicated.

So on the whole, this is a good effort.  You didn't use too many devices, or overuse those you did use.  In particular, you worked against cliches when they suggested themselves.   Well done, for an early effort - and, really, just well done.

[plsgoawaywhoisthis]

they said real men don't cry
so they shipped them to Nam
dropped them in jungles
and told them, stay calm  the confusion of one "they" with another is not obvious at first, but on second thought, could be meaningful:  those who'd already gone and not (overtly) cried, believed what they asserted?

m-16s in trembling hands
mud up to the knees
mosquito bites and blood and sweat
god, it ate them piece by piece  this is a good way to do rhyme:  once per stanza, avoids forcing.  Good.

"agent orange won't hurt you"  if you were capitalizing at all, Agent Orange deserves it (proper name)
they swore through their teeth  nice alternative and reference to cliche "lied through..."
while men watched the jungle die
and coughed beneath

hueys cut the sky in half  a distant reference to a Huey's two-bladed main rotor?  But basically, this is a clumsy front anchor to the following rhyme
radio static and gunfire laugh  a brilliant line, maybe you should just lose the preceding one
boys barely twenty
faces gone gray
another body bag
another day  good, original reversal of cliche "another... another" format with the double beat on the second line

"charlies close", the sgt. said
eyes so wide in the tet sun
so they lit the trees with napalm rain  this line and the previous need work - start by removing "the" ?
and called the duty done  have to agree with "the" here because conventional "their" would break message

saigon on fire
mothers screaming in smoke
somewhere a kid's photograph
burned inside a coat  I interpret this as an actual occurrence, so stet.  Might try to tell better, but not too artistic.

they came home to stares
not medals or cheers  there were medals, but no cheers - the medals, perhaps, mis-distributed
just silence
and nightmares that lasted years  this is accurate and rhymes, but does not satisfy.  Not sure why.

whiskey and pills to drown the hum
wives who slept beside a shell  very nice, especially if "shell" also implies unexploded munition
kids who learn that men don't tell  referring back to those who claimed men don't cry (either).  Should be "learned?"

the wars long done  your grammar normal elsewhere, so "war's" here (with apostrophe)
but in the breath of their pores  dynamite line - the smell of fear
in shaky herds and broken tones

they said real men don't cry
but they do
they just do it
where no one can see through  that is, they don't tell - the veil that takes the place of tears

---

In intensive critique, this is a little rougher than newbies' posts might otherwise receive.  But the work can stand it.

The interlinear comments above are pretty detailed, so just in general:  you're writing in third person, so you can be artistic rather than telegraphic, and correct grammar is appropriate.  You're not trying to transcribe the immediate feelings of a participant in the Vietnam war, but to comment on their situation at the time and later.  

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with being telegraphic and hard-bitten:  you can be speaking in the voice of a veteran trying to write from a viable remove.  That's not the same as being bitter, which may feel right but turn the reader off; sympathy must be earned.

What I'm not getting here is that it's old soldiers who tell the new ones it isn't manly to cry.  They're not being hypocritical - maybe they didn't, and still don't, and sleep nights.  Or at least wake up shaking, then roll over - just another one of those flashbacks.  That may be a big step too far, like mentioning that many smokers never get cancer and live long lives enjoying the weed:  it's just too complicated.

So on the whole, this is a good effort.  You didn't use too many devices, or overuse those you did use.  In particular, you worked against cliches when they suggested themselves.   Well done, for an early effort - and, really, just well done.

Hey man! Thank you for your reply ) I just wanted to let you know I'll take all your critique into consideration; this is one of my first poems I've shared openly for any sort of critique; and I'm glad to have gotten some. Thank you. I'll work on the grammar; alongside your other suggestions. This was very helpful.

Also; for perspective, this stanza:
saigon on fire
mothers screaming in smoke
somewhere a kid's photograph
burned inside a coal

Has a double meaning to it, at least that is what I was trying to implicate. A mother's picture was in a solider's coat, burning, screaming for her child, alongside maybe a childhood photograph the solider had possessed. I hope this gives a perspective to your edits, or at least more critique if you have to give.

they came home to stares
not medals or cheers "there were medals, but no cheers - the medals, perhaps, mis-distributed" - The medals weren't distributed correctly; especially to the ones that needed it, and thats the message I was trying to make. Thank you for putting it into perspective again though; I'll remove the medal part.

[evanbedford_dot_com]

I commend you for tackling such a tough subject. An important subject. An incredibly interesting subject. Please keep at it.

For criticism, I'd say that I'd love to see more strict attention paid to meter and rhyme (eg, Nam doesn't exactly rhyme with calm).

Here's a superb one on the same subject that I've copied from National Lampoon (1972 Best of) about the My Lai Massacre:

Willy Calley, pudding and pie
Shot the boys and made them die.
When the girls came to surrender,
Willey just ignored their gender.

Written by Michael O'Donoghue from SNL fame. When I first read it many years ago, I immediately committed it to memory. And because it was so well written, it was EASY to remember.

Too much poetic CRAP written these days. What we need it more Michael O'Donoghues. The subject matter is just waiting for genius. For raw material, how about the two drug smugglers clinging to a boat, hoping that Pete Hegseth doesn't waste them? Just saying.

[plsgoawaywhoisthis]

I commend you for tackling such a tough subject.  An important subject.  An incredibly interesting subject.  Please keep at it. 

For criticism, I'd say that I'd love to see more strict attention paid to meter and rhyme (eg, Nam doesn't exactly rhyme with calm).

Here's a superb one on the same subject that I've copied from National Lampoon (1972 Best of) about the My Lai Massacre:

Willy Calley, pudding and pie
Shot the boys and made them die.
When the girls came to surrender,
Willey just ignored their gender. 

Written by Michael O'Donoghue from SNL fame.  When I first read it many years ago, I immediately committed it to memory.  And because it was so well written, it was EASY to remember.

Too much poetic CRAP written these days.  What we need it more Michael O'Donoghues.  The subject matter is just waiting for genius.  For raw material, how about the two drug smugglers clinging to a boat, hoping that Pete Hegseth doesn't waste them?  Just saying.

Hey! I just saw this and I'd like to tell you how much I appreciate your views and how helpful this was. Thank you!

[matsunosuperfan]

I think you have a worthy subject and I honor the project's impulse. Unfortunately I am not convinced that this approach to the subject can achieve much. 

This is a didactic poem, and personally I am generally a huge sourpuss about didactic poetry. So from a standpoint of aesthetic taste, I am kind of a hostile witness here. OK, grains salis disclaimer provided. Let's dive in. 

The first stanza pretty much loses me immediately. "They said real men don't cry" announces a lot about the poem's intentions, and the announcement for me is a big turn-off. I feel immediately that I know everything that is about to happen, and the poem does not significantly subvert those expectations. So I find myself dissatisfied with the experience, as the most important thing for me in poetry is a sense of surprise. This poem did not surprise me once. 

Poem presents as a litany of Vietnam war cliches. These cliches are presented straight-up, fully earnest, and not complicated or recontextualized to any appreciable degree. "Dulce Et Decorum Est" already exists, and does more or less exactly what this poem aims to do. You're running into some real giants of the canon, and this creates a significant obligation on the part of your poem to make a new contribution to the discourse. Instead what we get is a series of familiar images, rendered in familiar language, with familiar sentiments attached to them. 

I would ask, why do we need this poem? We already know most of the sentiments it expresses. They aren't being expressed in a particularly new or subversive way. What does this poem offer us beyond, essentially, "Let's honor the hell that Vietnam vets went through, with which I trust we are all familiar?" At present, I'm afraid the answer is "not much." 

"Men are told not to cry, but they still suffer on the inside" has not been a particularly striking cultural insight for at least 20-30 years now. But it feels like the poem thinks it is. To me, that is unmotivating. 

I think you need a more ambitious project here than just "let's describe that war is bad and hurts the people involved." There's a kind of naievete to the poem that doesn't feel appropriate. The use of rhyme and singsong meter only amplifies this effect. Poem is not quite doggerel but ends up feeling doggerel-adjacent. Honestly my main advice would be don't try to write poetry like this.