Does a poem...?

[cidermaid]

I have noticed that the offered crit varies considerable not only from person to person, but also even in terms of what an individual might offer as an opinion. (Obviously it is good to have a board a base to keep things objective and fresh). However, I am given cause to question the validity of some points made when I notice what would appear to be a polar opposite opinion being expressed in other crit, or stances taken in their own writings and subsequent defence of crit given on their work.
I know that for many, there is a period when there is bit of a state of flux as we learn our craft and different opinions and skills rub off the shoulders of more experienced voices on the site. This is not really what I am trying to discuss.
I did consider tagging this onto the “what is poetry ?” discussion and please note I am not asking “what is good poetry?” I’m asking for some opinions and your thoughts concerning a couple of issues that have me gnashing my teeth because they appear to be movable feasts, attached to randomly elliptical pendulums when it comes to consistency.

Does a poem…?
…need to be PC? (as an absolute / within individual definitions / no not really…”let’s not and say we did!”…besides which we are being radical poets and nobody can second say the art)
…need to have an understandable, or at least some level of discernable meaning? (that is “accessible” to all / a select few)….or alternatively is it only about the relative sounds made by the units of words that is of significance and meaning is only secondary?
(I’ve no doubt there are other points that could be discussed, but these were the most recent two on my horizon).

[rayheinrich]

Does a poem…?
…need to be PC?

Not being PC is being PC from the opposite stance.
So there's no 'need to' involved; whether it likes it or not, every poem IS PC.

…need to have an understandable, or at least some level of discernible meaning?

Poems exist only if they can be perceived. They do this
through the use of words, pictures, sounds, et al.
Anything that can be perceived has a meaning, no matter
how trivial. Since no two perceivers are alike, each one
will assign the poem a different meaning. There is no such
thing as 'meaningless'. (That term, by the way, usually means:
"I don't like the damn thing." or "Its meaning disagrees with mine."
or "I'm too stupid [or lazy] to articulate my own meaning so
I'll just say it doesn't have one."

[newsclippings]

Sometimes I'll write a poem to eradicate a feeling.
In which case it wouldn't make much sense to anyone but me, but I like to put it out there anyway just to see how it makes others feel (usually troubled).
I mean that's usually the case for some of my more garbled nonsense.

[rowens]

Life doesn't make sense; all that you think makes sense is mere poetry.

Then there's poetry that carves new concrete realities out of the invisible bones of dead gods.

[Brownlie]

In my opinion sound is the way a poem sounds and sense is the meaning or plot It can be challenging to sync meaning with a pleasant sound. Sound can augment the profundity of sense. I could say more but I'm on a phone

[Leanne]

Does a poem…?
…need to be PC? (as an absolute / within individual definitions / no not really…”let’s not and say we did!”…besides which we are being radical poets and nobody can second say the art)

No. A poem needs to be what the poet wants to say. Deliberately trying to be non-PC is a bit passe, but there is no such thing as an unpoetic subject. Poetry gives us a vehicle for difficult, dangerous and dirty ideas that wouldn't work in any other shape. Poetry sometimes comes in beige but it's more interesting in shades that sometimes defy the rules of good taste.

…need to have an understandable, or at least some level of discernable meaning? (that is “accessible” to all / a select few)….or alternatively is it only about the relative sounds made by the units of words that is of significance and meaning is only secondary?
(I’ve no doubt there are other points that could be discussed, but these were the most recent two on my horizon).

As Ray said, everything has a meaning on at least some level. Some readers are resistant to finding it, especially if it's not immediately apparent. We have been exposed, over the past twenty years or so, to the idea that if it's difficult, there's always a shortcut somewhere. Spark notes destroy poetry.

This runs into problems when everything about a poem is forgettable, of course. If it doesn't have interesting language, unique imagery or ideas that spark the imagination it will make no impact on the reader at all. In the immortal words of Hector from The History Boys, (which I always quote because it's true): "...I never understand it. But learn it now, know it now and you will understand it... whenever."

[cidermaid]

Sorry Ray I could not disagree with you more about PC.
I use the term PC as follows:
Being PC – politically correct. As dictated by the political left in our society and is usually viewed as being liberal, an ‘anything goes’ type group of people, very ‘open’ and accepting of all kinds of lifestyles—except that is, any lifestyles that oppose it.
The voice of PC designs and operates to control the thoughts and actions of others, it seeks to intellectually disable free thought and implement a system of force feeding homogenised robots who (being no longer able to think for themselves or offer any self expression) will readily accept and adopt the “new and approved” (PC) world view. I think it is plain enough that I use PC in a pejorative way.
Thus, as a person who is anti-PC, I would say that, not only I am vehemently against others trying to control how I think and act, but that equally I do not aspire to control how others think and act. So I am defiantly not “PC from the opposite stance” (and I might have got your position completely wrong but I read your comment on PC as being deliberately obtuse and a bit of a smug put down…my apologies if this was not what you meant at all) I would absolutely not describe myself the opposite end of the same stick of rock with PC written through it. I’m quite happy for you to think whatever you would like to think and within the laws of the land concerning moral behaviour, to do whatever you would like to do…I’m just not prepared to have someone else ram their thoughts down my throat and try and force me to claim them as my own and to only do the things that they approve of).

Hmm…is there really meaning in everything? I think I have some understanding of what you were trying to convey in this and it is a very valid comment you make …but I would add a mention for the meaning of chaos as is found in the universe or perhaps to bring this down to some focus by mentioning the fascinating aspects of white noise. Does white noise have meaning? (now I’m being obtuse perhaps). Yes, I am sure that when the writer of a poem writes a line he / she normally has (or should have) something in mind in regards to meaning. What I was trying to bring out in the discussion is the dodge ball effect of being intellectually put down for not understanding a poem whilst at the same time reading (or words to this affective meaning) “this poem is meaningless or un-accessible” in crit offered to others. Which is it? Does a poem need to convey meaning or not? Where would nonsense rhyme fit into this? These are my honest questions I am pondering over.

On a personal note I do not mean any disrespect to yourself (Ray) in this reply. I appreciate that you are an experienced poet with a valid point you have offered and you have my appreciation for adding your comments to the discussion. I’m just venting some frustration…did I mention I have a real problem with the whole PC thing?
(Oh and I am sure if it came down to it I would not have sufficient go in my brain to entertain the sort of mental jousting I see going on daily…you would undoubtedly win in a contest of quick witted intellect if you chose to enter into a tit for tat discussion…so please don’t beat me up, I don’t really want to play that game I’ll lose !).

Hand in the air honest time now - in part, this is my unspoken / hidden agenda for this discussion. I have no problem with being told to muchie up and grow a thicker skin in order to take some harsh but honest crit on a poem. But playing dodge ball with smug comments and clever, cutting remarks and put downs is beyond my current energy or time allowances. I just want to have a go at writing poetry and I’m interested in any and every aspect of the process of producing a poem.
I’ve let slip what I think of PC , so I might as well mention my views on meaning. I often steer well clear of offering any crit on poems where I am struggling to discern some sort of meaning. But having said that I think that the sounds within a poem are very or equally important to meaning so my inability to crit does not stop me enjoying them at some level. However I do question the validity of offering crit where meaning is unknown. (How can I offer an opinion on a word choice or a punctuation placement if I do not have a basic understanding of overall meaning, surely meaning is fundamentally key to such aspects?).

Sorry Leanne, did not see your comment till after I had posted this…as ever the voice of reason speaks. Will read again and try and calm down..I found my rattle but I should be Ok now i've had a rant.

[Brownlie]

Does a poem…?
…need to be PC? (as an absolute / within individual definitions / no not really…”let’s not and say we did!”…besides which we are being radical poets and nobody can second say the art)

No. A poem needs to be what the poet wants to say. Deliberately trying to be non-PC is a bit passe, but there is no such thing as an unpoetic subject. Poetry gives us a vehicle for difficult, dangerous and dirty ideas that wouldn't work in any other shape. Poetry sometimes comes in beige but it's more interesting in shades that sometimes defy the rules of good taste.

…need to have an understandable, or at least some level of discernable meaning? (that is “accessible” to all / a select few)….or alternatively is it only about the relative sounds made by the units of words that is of significance and meaning is only secondary?
(I’ve no doubt there are other points that could be discussed, but these were the most recent two on my horizon).

As Ray said, everything has a meaning on at least some level. Some readers are resistant to finding it, especially if it's not immediately apparent. We have been exposed, over the past twenty years or so, to the idea that if it's difficult, there's always a shortcut somewhere. Spark notes destroy poetry.

This runs into problems when everything about a poem is forgettable, of course. If it doesn't have interesting language, unique imagery or ideas that spark the imagination it will make no impact on the reader at all. In the immortal words of Hector from The History Boys, (which I always quote because it's true): "...I never understand it. But learn it now, know it now and you will understand it... whenever."

I do love a good shortcut like spark notes then I end up in a ditch as. A drunkard in a mangled automobile. Ya buddy party on

[Leanne]

Sometimes I'll write a poem to eradicate a feeling.
In which case it wouldn't make much sense to anyone but me, but I like to put it out there anyway just to see how it makes others feel (usually troubled).
I mean that's usually the case for some of my more garbled nonsense.

Provided there's a bit of a key, we can use our own empathy to make sense of the most garbled emotional nonsense . Exploring emotions in poetry is certainly nothing new or unusual, but finding new and unusual ways of doing so... well, that's the greatest challenge of all. And you never know who you'll reach with it... because none of us are unique in our troubles and woes.

Again, quoting Hector from The History Boys (and if you haven't seen the film, why the hell not?!): "The best moments in reading are when you come across something — a thought, a feeling, a way of looking at things — that you'd thought special, particular to you. And here it is, set down by someone else, a person you've never met, maybe even someone long dead. And it's as if a hand has come out and taken yours."

---

P.S. Of course if you have no empathy, you're pretty much screwed.

[milo]

Sorry Ray I could not disagree with you more about PC.
I use the term PC as follows:
Being PC – politically correct. As dictated by the political left in our society and is usually viewed as being liberal, an ‘anything goes’ type group of people, very ‘open’ and accepting of all kinds of lifestyles—except that is, any lifestyles that oppose it.
The voice of PC designs and operates to control the thoughts and actions of others, it seeks to intellectually disable free thought and implement a system of force feeding homogenised robots who (being no longer able to think for themselves or offer any self expression) will readily accept and adopt the “new and approved” (PC) world view. I think it is plain enough that I use PC in a pejorative way.
Thus, as a person who is anti-PC, I would say that, not only I am vehemently against others trying to control how I think and act, but that equally I do not aspire to control how others think and act. So I am defiantly not “PC from the opposite stance” (and I might have got your position completely wrong but I read your comment on PC as being deliberately obtuse and a bit of a smug put down…my apologies if this was not what you meant at all) I would absolutely not describe myself the opposite end of the same stick of rock with PC written through it. I’m quite happy for you to think whatever you would like to think and within the laws of the land concerning moral behaviour, to do whatever you would like to do…I’m just not prepared to have someone else ram their thoughts down my throat and try and force me to claim them as my own and to only do the things that they approve of).

Hmm…is there really meaning in everything? I think I have some understanding of what you were trying to convey in this and it is a very valid comment you make …but I would add a mention for the meaning of chaos as is found in the universe or perhaps to bring this down to some focus by mentioning the fascinating aspects of white noise. Does white noise have meaning? (now I’m being obtuse perhaps). Yes, I am sure that when the writer of a poem writes a line he / she normally has (or should have) something in mind in regards to meaning. What I was trying to bring out in the discussion is the dodge ball effect of being intellectually put down for not understanding a poem whilst at the same time reading (or words to this affective meaning) “this poem is meaningless or un-accessible” in crit offered to others. Which is it? Does a poem need to convey meaning or not? Where would nonsense rhyme fit into this? These are my honest questions I am pondering over.

On a personal note I do not mean any disrespect to yourself (Ray) in this reply. I appreciate that you are an experienced poet with a valid point you have offered and you have my appreciation for adding your comments to the discussion. I’m just venting some frustration…did I mention I have a real problem with the whole PC thing?
(Oh and I am sure if it came down to it I would not have sufficient go in my brain to entertain the sort of mental jousting I see going on daily…you would undoubtedly win in a contest of quick witted intellect if you chose to enter into a tit for tat discussion…so please don’t beat me up, I don’t really want to play that game I’ll lose !).

Hand in the air honest time now - in part, this is my unspoken / hidden agenda for this discussion. I have no problem with being told to muchie up and grow a thicker skin in order to take some harsh but honest crit on a poem. But playing dodge ball with smug comments and clever, cutting remarks and put downs is beyond my current energy or time allowances. I just want to have a go at writing poetry and I’m interested in any and every aspect of the process of producing a poem.
I’ve let slip what I think of PC , so I might as well mention my views on meaning. I often steer well clear of offering any crit on poems where I am struggling to discern some sort of meaning. But having said that I think that the sounds within a poem are very or equally important to meaning so my inability to crit does not stop me enjoying them at some level. However I do question the validity of offering crit where meaning is unknown. (How can I offer an opinion on a word choice or a punctuation placement if I do not have a basic understanding of overall meaning, surely meaning is fundamentally key to such aspects?).

Sorry Leanne, did not see your comment till after I had posted this…as ever the voice of reason speaks. Will read again and try and calm down..I found my rattle but I should be Ok now i've had a rant.

I would think that a poem could explore avenues of PC or non-PC or even oblivious of PC. Anything really is a pretty good stage for a poem!

As for inconsistency of comments, I would say just take what you find value in, people provide their time and skills in commenting kind of as a gift, but that doesn't mean that their tastes will align 100% with yours.

smug comments and clever cutting remarks?hmm . . .

[Leanne]

Polar opposite opinions can also be the result of different experience levels -- for example, someone new to poetry might read a list of cliches and say "OMG this is like the most amazing poem ever, I totally get what you're saying", without realising that the reason they totally get what's being said is because it's been said 935,000,000 times and is so generic that anyone who reads it will have some understanding.

People who've read more poetry, on the other hand, tend to demand more. We're nasty like that. That's still not really an excuse for leaving snide comments on poems -- those are just self-aggrandisement for the most part. Snide comments should be reserved for discussion forums

[rayheinrich]

This thread's comments are a great example of 'meaning' at work:
People hear exactly the same question differently. (On good
days the intelligent hear intelligence, and the sarcastic
hear parody; on bad days the intelligent hear stupidity and
the sarcastic hear parody.)

I felt happy and sad for no reason. I had small visions. I
started to speak with an odd accent. At first, while reading
poetry, I experienced these effects. Quite marvelous, but what
did the poem mean? Now, years later, I still experience those
same effects. I've just learned that those emotions and visions
WERE the meaning. That the meaning hadn't changed; it was my
reading that had changed. It had changed from an unconscious
process to a conscious process. Having this happen was both
wonderful and awful. It's Adam and Eve leaving Eden; it's
trading passion for perception.

But luckily, it's not so irreversible. Usually (on good days),
you can barter a bit of passion for a bit of perception (and
vice versa).



P.S. An example of the relativity of "PC":

Liberals to conservatives:
"You're not pro-life; you're against woman's rights."

Conservatives to Liberals:
"You're not pro-choice; you're for the murder of the unborn."

[cidermaid]

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful comments Ray.

---

I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how I could improve my ability to offer relevant crit on a poem when meaning eludes me. (Speaking as one for whom punctuation rules are a poor skill, and thus cannot be reliably offered).

[serge gurkski]

If meaning eludes you, why would you want to critique and even relevantly, at all? ;-)
Sorry for intruding. Just could not resist.
cheers
serge

[cidermaid]

Not intruding. (And you do it so sweetly ...who could possibly protest at such a mannerly intrusion).
Good comment, sort of why I asked the question.
Normally I don't offer crit if I don't see meaning....but I see from some comments that others. Do not appear to have a problem....so I'm interested to have a view on this.

[Brownlie]

I think you should always critique and give your honest opinion I think unless you're a troll people will be grateful for comments. An unclear meaning could be a weakness in a poem that can be worked on. Furthermore, starting a dialogue if you are uncertain can benefit both the poet and commenting party.

[Bunx]

poems always make me cry, gosh

[billy]

I have noticed that the offered crit varies considerable not only from person to person, but also even in terms of what an individual might offer as an opinion. (Obviously it is good to have a board a base to keep things objective and fresh). However, I am given cause to question the validity of some points made when I notice what would appear to be a polar opposite opinion being expressed in other crit, or stances taken in their own writings and subsequent defence of crit given on their work.

i found on forums it's not only the content of the poem which plays a part on how it's critiqued but sometimes the persona of the poet. for instance (and this is me being truthful) if i were to leave critique on one of your poems, i'd temper my line by line with a touch more kindness; though i always try to be honest. with tecktak or serge i'll be less kind. for people who are offensive i'll just be brutally honest without trying to be kind. i'm good to go with smart remarks as long as they only insult the poem, sometimes it's a fine line deciding the fact.

I know that for many, there is a period when there is bit of a state of flux as we learn our craft and different opinions and skills rub off the shoulders of more experienced voices on the site. This is not really what I am trying to discuss.

one of the reasons my crit is seldom the same week by week or month by month is that i learn something new. but that's all i'll say on the matter

Does a poem…?
…need to be PC? (as an absolute / within individual definitions / no not really…”let’s not and say we did!”…besides which we are being radical poets and nobody can second say the art)

only if we want it to be. i think first and foremost it has to be or at least attempt to be whatever we deicide it should be.

…need to have an understandable, or at least some level of discernable meaning? (that is “accessible” to all / a select few)….or alternatively is it only about the relative sounds made by the units of words that is of significance and meaning is only secondary?
(I’ve no doubt there are other points that could be discussed, but these were the most recent two on my horizon).

for me a poem needsd to have something (it can be the title or one line) that i can grasp, otherwise i can't comment except to say i can't understand the poem, there are occasions (many of them) when i just don't get it, yet the words hold something special. i'll say as much in the feedback i give. it's not a contest, not about being smarter or more learned. that thick skin you mention; think of it as a life jack at sea. most of the time it's stored away only on the odd occasion does it actually need to be worn. if we're uneasy with line by lines and some of the less flavourful, cutting remarks post in novice. personally i think you as a poet i've read on the site, are worthy of posting in mild and serious. if you think someone is being a smart arse, (it's usually tom ) send them a pm and explain how you feel.

---

We have been exposed, over the past twenty years or so, to the idea that if it's difficult, there's always a shortcut somewhere. Spark notes destroy poetry.

sparks def destroys feedback when it's used so it sort of kills that too

---

If meaning eludes you, why would you want to critique and even relevantly, at all? ;-)
Sorry for intruding. Just could not resist.
cheers
serge

sometimes all it takes to open up a poem that eludes us is a line or phrase or word, a better title. if enough people say "the poem eludes me" the the poet can possibly make less elusive with a minor edit. isn't that what workshops are for?

i often get the wrong meaning from a poem while many get the poets intention. and that's okay. but if everyone who reads a poem and gets the wrong intent from it the poet may think about it before he writes another poem that's just too ambiguous. if he's a good poet he'll say to everyone that got it wrong "yes, yes, exactly, that's what i was going for, you nailed it "

---

Not intruding. (And you do it so sweetly ...who could possibly protest at such a mannerly intrusion).
Good comment, sort of why I asked the question.
Normally I don't offer crit if I don't see meaning....but I see from some comments that others. Do not appear to have a problem....so I'm interested to have a view on this.

if ever you see a poem i write and can't discern the meaning, say so, let me know i got it wrong or didn't succeed getting a point or message across, that i didn't succeed with the emotion i intended. often telling me you don't get it is the most important piece of feedback i can receive, of course it could be the reader fault but if enough readers have the same problem then it probably my fault.

[cidermaid]

Really good advice Billy - thanks for shareing your thoughts.

[serge gurkski]

Yes, ty billy. That is how i meant it. ,-) Somehow.

--------------------------------------------------------------

billy: "; though i always try to be honest. with tecktak or serge i'll be less kind."

Now wait, what? Haha ;-) How mean!