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This is an appeal. Not the old chestnut on obscurity again? Please! No, not really. I have just read one of philatone's pieces, Nickname. I perhaps unfairly suggested that he deliberately made the clear unclear, the ordered formless and the simple complicated.
Before a holiday break I watched mark wrestling with his own legs as he tried to get a "story" banging around in the confines of head to run off of its own accord......but the more he prodded it the more it fell over.
Please discuss. Clarity first, obscurity second, complexity third.
Best,
Tectak
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Clarity: reddish
Obscurity: rutilous
Complexity: rufescent
a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
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(04-09-2012, 08:47 PM)tectak Wrote: This is an appeal. Not the old chestnut on obscurity again? Please! No, not really. I have just read one of philatone's pieces, Nickname. I perhaps unfairly suggested that he deliberately made the clear unclear, the ordered formless and the simple complicated.
Before a holiday break I watched mark wrestling with his own legs as he tried to get a "story" banging around in the confines of head to run off of its own accord......but the more he prodded it the more it fell over.
Please discuss. Clarity first, obscurity second, complexity third.
Best,
Tectak which one a clicky link would help!
Perfection changes with the light and light goes on for infinity ~~~Bronte
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a brightly colored fungus that grows in bark inclusions
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In a narrative, obscurity is probably counter-productive... and obscurity for its own sake is pointless... but there's a difference between being obscure and not being explicit.
Some people like to be hit over the head with meaning. As long as there are sufficient keys, I like to unlock it for myself.
It could be worse
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(04-10-2012, 07:55 AM)Leanne Wrote: In a narrative, obscurity is probably counter-productive... and obscurity for its own sake is pointless... but there's a difference between being obscure and not being explicit.
Some people like to be hit over the head with meaning. As long as there are sufficient keys, I like to unlock it for myself.
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The men in the white coats won't come, will they? Nothing to cure or treat: just a personality disorder.
You forget that metaphors, used frequently enough, cease to be metaphors, and become secondary meanings for the word in question. 'Aim' is well on its way to that status: a mini-metamorphosis, if you will.
Wittgenstein was the lazy arse who bragged that he had never read any Greek philosophy.
Good example of mumbo jumbo, though. 
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At the end of the day, all I can do is repeat the words of the six greatest philosophers of all time:
"And Wittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as schloshed as Schlegel."
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[quote='abu nuwas' pid='94163' dateline='1334022056']
The men in the white coats won't come, will they? Nothing to cure or treat: just a personality disorder.
You forget that metaphors, used frequently enough, cease to be metaphors, and become secondary meanings for the word in question. 'Aim' is well on its way to that status: a mini-metamorphosis, if you will.
Wittgenstein was the lazy arse who bragged that he had never read any Greek philosophy.
Good example of mumbo jumbo, though.
rr
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Sorry to hear you love Wittgenstein too much to have him disrespected... but anyone famous is fair game and frankly, so's anyone not very famous. Taking yourself or other people too seriously is hazardous for your health.
This is a friendly forum. If you've got something unfriendly to say, the Sewer or the Pig's Arse will welcome you with open arms.
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(04-10-2012, 08:58 AM)Veronique Wrote: (04-10-2012, 07:55 AM)Leanne Wrote: In a narrative, obscurity is probably counter-productive... and obscurity for its own sake is pointless... but there's a difference between being obscure and not being explicit.
Some people like to be hit over the head with meaning. As long as there are sufficient keys, I like to unlock it for myself.
Hello all,
Ludwig said, "It is my aim to teach you to pass
from a piece of disguised nonsense to something
that is patent nonsense."
With this, and the subject of this thread, a reader
will expect my comment to be about clarity and ob-
scurity and nonsense-- but it's not.
It's about Wittgenstein's mixed prepositional meta-
phor in his written words above. The quotation fits
the thread, for sure-- but my comment to follow makes
its own yarn.
A person can't 'aim' to.
A persosn must 'aim' at.
'aim' is a metaphor.
I aimed the gun 'to' the head of Jesse James just as
he reached into the safe at West Plains Frontier Bank
in ElDorado, Missouri.
I aimed the gun at the head of Jessie .....
I aimed the gun 'toward' the ... Shot will probably
miss and James will turn and blow your head off.
I aimed the arrow 'at' the apple sitting on my son's
head. The Cupid/Angel aimed his arrows 'at' Bernini's
Saint Theresa, while she orgasmed for the third time.
'toward' would work here, as there is no specific 'zone'
in nuns.
V I personally need to be hit over the head and will continue to keep lessons such as you give. I still like to learn a new trick every day.. kiss!
Perfection changes with the light and light goes on for infinity ~~~Bronte
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(04-10-2012, 12:13 PM)Leanne Wrote: Sorry to hear you love Wittgenstein too much to have him disrespected... but anyone famous is fair game and frankly, so's anyone not very famous. Taking yourself or other people too seriously is hazardous for your health.
This is a friendly forum. If you've got something unfriendly to say, the Sewer or the Pig's Arse will welcome you with open arms.
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I fear you've misunderstood. And perhaps so has he. And quite likely, so have I. It may be simply the nature of the beast. It may be a cultural gulf. It may be that Abu has his period. Who knows? Irreverence is my only religion, so I'm clearly unqualified to comment.
Which is why I shan't any more.
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is there anyway the thread can be dumbed up so as to let me understand what's happening please 
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(04-10-2012, 01:04 PM)billy Wrote: is there anyway the thread can be dumbed up so as to let me understand what's happening please
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(04-10-2012, 01:17 PM)Veronique Wrote: (04-10-2012, 01:04 PM)billy Wrote: is there anyway the thread can be dumbed up so as to let me understand what's happening please
Clearly, I posted it in the wrong forum. Can you shift the whole shebang into General?
Best,
Tectak
(04-09-2012, 10:20 PM)rayheinrich Wrote:
Clarity: reddish
Obscurity: rutilous
Complexity: rufescent
Obviously you are a mycologist 
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loving this. I had never heard of this dude, but I laughed when I read him
http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarchi...oemId=1712
he has wit and here is what himself has to say about him.. I love hearing clive speak. well! he's an ocke eh! I need to go hunt more poems..
http://www.clivejames.com/pieces/hercules/wittgenstein
Perfection changes with the light and light goes on for infinity ~~~Bronte
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(04-09-2012, 08:47 PM)tectak Wrote: This is an appeal. Not the old chestnut on obscurity again? Please! No, not really. I have just read one of philatone's pieces, Nickname. I perhaps unfairly suggested that he deliberately made the clear unclear, the ordered formless and the simple complicated.
Before a holiday break I watched mark wrestling with his own legs as he tried to get a "story" banging around in the confines of head to run off of its own accord......but the more he prodded it the more it fell over.
Please discuss. Clarity first, obscurity second, complexity third.
Best,
Tectak i can understand where you're coming from. ( i think) you've read enough poetry and poetry related stuff to maybe know a thing or two about clarity and obscurity in poetry. while we can discuss the three avenues of 'ity here, it won't make that much difference in peoples poetry (not really) but it is a good thing to discuss. like most things i prefer a mixture of all three and i'm not that bothered which order they come in. i think clarity and obscurity work well together, for the former we can get a clue as to the understanding of the latter (sometimes) and when both used together they can create a complexity that isn't overly complex.
with narrative poetry i prefer clarity over complex, (i think i always prefer the complexity least of of all, though i do prefer to see it) i'm good to go with unknown place names etc, and even a few fresh metaphors, most of all i want to do/live or at least feel as though i'm taking part in the poem.
non narrative poetry: i still prefer the clarity first, but also find obscurity makes it less boring, if it gives me just enough to think about with making it illegible, i'm good to go. in this kind of poem i think obscurity plays a larger part but not as large as the first two.
the problem arises when a well read poet and a relatively newb poet read the same piece. they see through different lens, and because of that; what may be a complex or obscure poem for one, may be a less obscure or less complex poem for the other. this often leads to a class system in forums where one poet is thought less of than another.
[youtube]K2k1iRD2f-c[/youtube]
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