lyrics subforum

[Tiger the Lion]

@Crow, I'm thinking you would like to see lyrics written much like plays are. Or screenplays for that matter. With lots of cues outside the actual play. There's nothing wrong with that. But in reality, talented musicians can play and sing the pants off the normal rules of English. Let's have a look at this.

How would anyone qualify these lyrics via text only?

The crescendo on paper would be...

Ooooooooooooooo baaaabe,
when I pick up the phone... 
(now because our hero is in despair, eating cold pizza and watching reruns - enter Gomer Pyle saying, "surprise, surprise, surprise" from the TV set)

(ok, now trickle down on the piano)
there'll be nobody home.

Context cues might go on indefinitely, no? 

And how about that half verse at the end? That can't be right. 

[crow]

“I do find it a little concerning that you can tell someone their lyrics aren’t lyrics but you also can’t articulate the rules you are using to make that call.”

Me, too.

I’m telling you, point blank, full stop, I don’t know what lyrics are. Nobody knows what lyrics are. I don’t know how to be clearer on this.

I have no access point, no starting point to even begin the conversation. Here’s a brain dump. I could do this six different ways.

Let’s say someone asked me how to write lyrics. I’d say there are three approaches: mumble, hymn, and inspiration. Mumble lyrics are written to a repeat track. This is most common in rap lyrics writing, but it can work with any genre. There’s no way to write to 1/16ths without mumble, and it’s rather useless for whole-note writing. Hymn is best for the initial conversion of a poem from feet to beats in lyrics. This is good for rock/pop/country because you’re fitting, generally, poetic feet to 1/4 notes. Lastly, you have genius/inspiration, where the words and melody “arrive” together. These lyrics frustrate their authors who want genius to write the whole song. Most typically, after a verse and chorus appear via genius, subsequent versus and the bridge require some elbow grease. Genius is the often the slowest means of producing a full song. Sometimes it prevents the song from ever being finished. That said, it is uniquely useful for the production of musicals and for coauthorship, generally.

Half a good set of lyrics is a good start. It’s fine to let someone else finish, especially if you’re stumped.

In reality, these songwriting methods are not entirely indistinct. Usually, genius occurs when your ear hears a melody that snaps your idle thoughts into words.

Now, what you need to figure out is how you can use editors notes as primers without feeling coauthored.

First, become an editor. give as much feedback as you can. Second, learn to write a dozen drafts. In my experience, 1/3 of the time, the first draft is best, 1/3 of the time, the last one is, and 1/3 of the time, it’s one of the middle drafts.

[CRNDLSM]

We probably shouldn't call it genius, maybe lucky

Songwriting also comes with perseverance and practice. You didn't have a repeating chorus if you didn't have 2 more minutes to fill, to play that lick again that has them dancing. Music is about movement, and the lyrics should reflect that movement.

[Quixilated]

“I do find it a little concerning that you can tell someone their lyrics aren’t lyrics but you also can’t articulate the rules you are using to make that call.”

Me, too.

I’m telling you, point blank, full stop, I don’t know what lyrics are. Nobody knows what lyrics are. I don’t know how to be clearer on this.

I have no access point, no starting point to even begin the conversation. 

I am flummoxed by this response. If I didn’t have a clear definition of lyrics in my own mind (or even at the very least a vague definition), I would never tell another person to their face that the thing they called lyrics wasn’t lyrics. I would need to have a reason for thinking that, at least one that made sense to me. I know I am more cautious than most, but the audacity here is seriously boggling my mind. Where is the logic in this strategy? To what end is it applied? How is it a helpful critique to tell someone they failed to accomplish the very essence of their goal if you don’t even have a reason to support the claim?  It’s just.  I can’t even.

[busker]

@crow - based on the responses here plus the responses to my lyrics post, I see that:

1. Your definition of a lyric is a piece of poetry with performance aids / stage directions. Things like where to place a chorus, how to format a piece for it to look like song lyrics, and similar things.
2. Apart from (1), there is nothing. There is no need to even argue that a lyric is whatever goes into the body of a song. And we have countless examples of ordinary poems that are good song lyrics because of how they work with the music and the mood ('Mother'), and relatively better written poems that don't do much as songs ('Advance Australia Fair')

With (1) and (2), I think a lyrics subforum serves only to confuse, for no good reason.
Where it's a question of critiquing the song as a whole, we have the Movies, Music...forum for that.

[Wjames]

I was trying to think of songs where the lyrics could work well on their own without any music.

I think this song, Small Plane by Bill Callahan is one:

You used to take me up
I watched and learned
how to fly.

No navigation system
beyond our eyes
watching.

I always went wrong in the same place
where the river splits towards the sea,
that couldn't possibly be
you and me.

Sometimes you sleep while I take us home
that's when I know
we really have a home.

I never like to land -
getting back up seems impossibly grand,
we do it with ease.

Danger, I never think of danger,
I really am a lucky man
flying this small plane.

I like it when I take the controls from you
and when you take the controls from me,
I really am a lucky man
flying this small plane,
eyes scan the path ahead
and all around.

---
I removed some of the repetition and added some punctuation. Certain sections work really well on their own, other parts don't work as well without the music. I am also a biased reader because it's incredibly difficult not to hear the music in my head while reading the words.

[crow]

“I removed some of the repetition”

Then you removed the chorus. You have provided a live chicken without a heart or bones.

---

Busker,

Yes, a “lyric” is just a poem with stage directions. Also, a squid is just a dog that lives in the ocean plus some other stuff that doesn’t matter. Just like lyrics are “poems with stage direction according to crow,” “guns are just tools,” and “a cowboy without a horse is just a hat without a head.”

I have no idea why you think a sung poem with stage directions is just a poem, just like I have no idea why you think that’s what I’m saying.

---

If you give a shit about what I think, ask me. Don’t say, “based on what you’re saying, you’re stupid.” Fuck right on off.

[busker]

Busker,

Yes, a “lyric” is just a poem with stage directions. Also, a squid is just a dog that lives in the ocean plus some other stuff that doesn’t matter. Just like lyrics are “poems with stage direction according to crow,” “guns are just tools,” and “a cowboy without a horse is just a hat without a head.”

I have no idea why you think a sung poem with stage directions is just a poem, just like I have no idea why you think that’s what I’m saying.

---

Because there isn't a separate screenplay forum, or a forum for members to discuss exclusively, large language models for AI poetry.
When you came in like a breathless evangelist, you couldn't even explain what it was that would define a lyrics subforum. 

You didn't or couldn't define what a lyric was. Even though, god knows, every man and his dog was asking you about it.
Your thinking had to be teased out of you, like with a hirsute Jane Goodall subject.

If you give a shit about what I think, ask me. Don’t say, “based on what you’re saying, you’re stupid.” Fuck right on off.

Actually, my post was the first exposition of the argument that you'd never bothered to make yourself, and it helped some people see what it was that you were trying to say (see 'Jane Goodall subject' above).

Hope that clarifies.

[Tiger the Lion]

Lyrics (poem) below. In Bold are my demarcations. (not that easy)




My life is changing in so many ways
I don't know who to trust anymore
There's a shadow runnin' through my days   Verse 1A
Like a beggar goin' from door to door

I was thinking that maybe I'd get a maid
Find a place nearby for her to stay                 Verse1B
Just someone to keep my house clean
Fix my meals and go away

A maid
A man needs a maid                                     Chorus
A maid

It's hard to make that change
When life and love turn strange and cold       Bridge 1

To live a love
You've gotta give a love
To give a love                                                Bridge 2
You've gotta be part of
When will I see you again?

A while ago somewhere, I don't know when
I was watchin' a movie with a friend                             Verse 2
I fell in love with the actress
She was playin' a part that I could understand

A maid
A man needs a maid                                               Doubled Chorus
A maid
A man needs a maid

When will I see you again?                                   Abbreviated Bridge 2


Not your standard progression, but there is order in the chaos.

[Tiger the Lion]

“I removed some of the repetition”

Then you removed the chorus. You have provided a live chicken without a heart or bones.

---

Busker,

Yes, a “lyric” is just a poem with stage directions. Also, a squid is just a dog that lives in the ocean plus some other stuff that doesn’t matter. Just like lyrics are “poems with stage direction according to crow,” “guns are just tools,” and “a cowboy without a horse is just a hat without a head.”

I have no idea why you think a sung poem with stage directions is just a poem, just like I have no idea why you think that’s what I’m saying.

---

If you give a shit about what I think, ask me. Don’t say, “based on what you’re saying, you’re stupid.” Fuck right on off.

Crow, a reminder that you are the OP of this thread and posted it as a "Poetry Discussion." You began with "I’m posting this with the encouragement of the moderators of this forum." A reminder that we are not in "The Sewer." Telling a Mod (or any member for that matter) to fuck off is contrary to the rules of the Discussion forum, and frankly, not the best strategy for a discourse that you initiated. Do better. 
Mod.

[crow]

I apologize for telling busker to fuck off. I should’ve said, “see above.”

Now what?

I’m not interested in defending the most obvious point on the planet, that lyrics and poems are two poetic media with important differences, and I’m unable to defend my position because I need help articulating a lyrics theory that’s sufficiently distinct from poetry. That’s the whole point.

So, this argument is skunked.

I could say this,

Poems are governed by lexical meter. Lyrics are governed by beats. Therefore, a poet's concern is semantic flow, and the lyricists concern is semantic density.

I could say this,

Song lyrics are the genitals of the poetic kingdom. Poets find pleasure in them, but usually they just want to play with them, and the idea of looking closely at them is repulsive.

I could say,

Defining lyrics as sung poetry is like defining a pepperoni pizza as spoiled meat on spoiled milk on spoiled flour and water.

Really, I could make the bestest case for anything, and busker would say, “I don’t get it.”

Sorry for telling you to fuck off, Busker. It’s not personal. I should’ve asked you to make a meaningful contribution to the dialectic instead of forcing it into recursive horse hockey.

---

Tiger the Lion,

Thanks for posting that. Give me a minute. I was just being hostile to a stranger on the internet for nearly no reason, and I need to chill out. Busker, I’m genuinely sorry. I’d like to get what I want without being an asshole, but it’s the internet.

Also, the thing I want is important, so I don’t mind cursing you out. I’d do it again right now, but apparently there are sewer words that polite company can’t tolerate.

The world needs pigpen and pigpen needs a lyrics subforum. Please respond by asking how lyrics and poems differ. I’ll strike the bait.

[CRNDLSM]

I could say this,

Song lyrics are the genitals of the poetic kingdom. Poets find pleasure in them, but usually they just want to play with them, and the idea of looking closely at them is repulsive.
I just find this analogy hilarious 

I could say,

Defining lyrics as sung poetry is like defining a pepperoni pizza as spoiled meat on spoiled milk on spoiled flour and water.
I don't quite get this one though, like lyric is more than a poem intended for music?  Why are they all spoiled, why not processed and cooked together?  

[crow]

Defining lyrics as sung poetry is like defining a pepperoni pizza as spoiled meat on spoiled milk on spoiled flour and water.
I don't quite get this one though, like lyric is more than a poem intended for music? Why are they all spoiled, why not processed and cooked together?

A pepperoni pizza could be mischaracterized in a way that makes it sound gross. Lyrics can be mischaracterized in a way that makes them sound mundane or alien. But lyrics are a distinctive poetic media with no validating aesthetic criteria.

I don’t want to go to grad school to develop one. I want to go here.

[busker]

1718662258[/url]']
I apologize for telling busker to fuck off. I should’ve said, “see above.”

Now what?

I’m not interested in defending the most obvious point on the planet, that lyrics and poems are two poetic media with important differences, and I’m unable to defend my position because I need help articulating a lyrics theory that’s sufficiently distinct from poetry. That’s the whole point.

So, this argument is skunked.

I could say this,

Poems are governed by lexical meter. Lyrics are governed by beats. Therefore, a poet's concern is semantic flow, and the lyricists concern is semantic density. 

I could say this,

Song lyrics are the genitals of the poetic kingdom. Poets find pleasure in them, but usually they just want to play with them, and the idea of looking closely at them is repulsive.

I could say,

Defining lyrics as sung poetry is like defining a pepperoni pizza as spoiled meat on spoiled milk on spoiled flour and water.

Really, I could make the bestest case for anything, and busker would say, “I don’t get it.”

Sorry for telling you to fuck off, Busker. It’s not personal. I should’ve asked you to make a meaningful contribution to the dialectic instead of forcing it into recursive horse hockey.

---

Tiger the Lion,

Thanks for posting that. Give me a minute. I was just being hostile to a stranger on the internet for nearly no reason, and I need to chill out. Busker, I’m genuinely sorry. I’d like to get what I want without being an asshole, but it’s the internet.

Also, the thing I want is important, so I don’t mind cursing you out. I’d do it again right now, but apparently there are sewer words that polite company can’t tolerate.

The world needs pigpen and pigpen needs a lyrics subforum. Please respond by asking how lyrics and poems differ. I’ll strike the bait.

Crow, I prefer that people speak plainly (in a “Discussion” forum), logically, and move from claim to argument to conclusion.
Let’s set aside the similes and analogies and get to the only part of your post that actually makes a claim.


“Lyrics are governed by beats”

But as I pointed out,

“For unto us a child is born
Unto us a son is given”

Is both there in the Bible and in Handel’s messiah

“Come away, come away, death
And in sad cypress let me be laid”

Is there in Shakespeare and also in the song that it was meant to be sung to

Which brings me back to the point that without the accompanying song, the lyric is useless
And critiquing the lyric alone is a waste of time 

In my impromptu song lyric post in Basic, your comments were about where the chorus should go. But there is no chorus in the song. You were making up rules and their enforcement manual as you went along.

This is my last post on the subject. This is not a discussion worth prolonging.

[crow]

Busker, 

I picked a fight with the right person. Thanks for refusing to back down. 

I think, now, that poems fit to be sung are lyric. Poems with a repeated line or lines are lyrics.

Once that happens, the ordinary rules of interpretation are estranged, and something weird happens to authorship.

You’re wrong about this not being worth further discussion. I dare you to find anything resembling the following rule anywhere out there. I know for sure none of us had it.

Cannon of Lyrics Interpretation
1. Lyrics are poems with a repeated line or lines.

crow

[Tiger the Lion]

Busker, 

I picked a fight with the right person. Thanks for refusing to back down. 

I think, now, that poems fit to be sung are lyric. Poems with a repeated line or lines are lyrics.

Once that happens, the ordinary rules of interpretation are estranged, and something weird happens to authorship.

You’re wrong about this not being worth further discussion. I dare you to find anything resembling the following rule anywhere out there. I know for sure none of us had it.

Cannon of Lyrics Interpretation
1. Lyrics are poems with a repeated line or lines.

crow

Wrong again. One example... Lyrics below.



Nautical Disaster

I had this dream where I relished the fray
And the screamin' filled my head all day
It was as though I'd been spit here, settled in, into the pocket
Of a lighthouse on some rocky socket off the coast of France, Dear
One afternoon four thousand men died in the water here
And five hundred more were thrashin' madly
As parasites might in your blood
Now I was in a lifeboat designed for ten, ten only
Anythin' that systematic would get you hated
It's not a deal nor a test nor a love of something fated, death
The selection was quick, the crew was picked in order
And those left in the water got kicked off our pant leg
And we headed for home
Then the dream ends when the phone rings
"You doin' alright? He said, "It's out there most days and nights
But only a fool would complain"
"Anyway, Susan, if you like, our conversation
Is as faint a sound in my memory
As those fingernails scratchin' on my hull"

[crow]

I don’t know if those are lyrics. Typically, if you’re meant to listen, it’s a lyric poem. If you’re meant to sing along, it’s lyrics.

Most often, lyrics are indicated by a repeated phrase, line, or stanza.

If the audience is meant to sing along, the repeated line should be memorable. If the repeated line is memorable, it is more likely to be lyrics than a lyric poem.

This is an excellent sung lyric poem. It is not lyrics.

Perhaps it would become lyrics if the entire song were meant to be a sing-along, but given the gravity of the material, this seems unlikely.

For contrast, Garth Brooks’s “The River” isn’t a lyric poem. It’s lyrics. It’s a sing-along song. I have intentionally pasted the lyrics without indicators, white space, or syntax here:

————————
“The River”

You know a dream is like a river
Ever changin' as it flows
And the dreamer's just a vessel
That must follow where it goes
Trying to learn from what's behind you
And never knowing what's in store
Makes each day a constant battle
Just to stay between the shores
And I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Like a bird upon the wind
These waters are my sky
I'll never reach my destination
If I never try
So I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Too many times we stand aside
And let the waters slip away
'Til what we put off 'til tomorrow
Has now become today
So don't you sit upon the shoreline
And say you're satisfied
Choose to chance the rapids
And dare to dance the tide
Yes, I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Like a bird upon the wind
These waters are my sky
I'll never reach my destination
If I never try
So I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
There's bound to be rough waters
And I know I'll take some falls
But with the good Lord as my captain
I can make it through them all
Yes, I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Like a bird upon the wind
These waters are my sky
I'll never reach my destination
If I never try
So I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Yes, I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
'Til the river runs dry
————————

The same song with paragraphing, white space, and syntax reads as follows:

————————
“The River”

[Verse]
You know a dream is like a river
Ever changin' as it flows
And the dreamer's just a vessel
That must follow where it goes

Trying to learn from what's behind you
And never knowing what's in store
Makes each day a constant battle
Just to stay between the shores.

[Chorus]
And I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry
Like a bird upon the wind
These waters are my sky

I'll never reach my destination
If I never try
So I will sail my vessel
'Til the river runs dry

[Verse]
Too many times we stand aside
And let the waters slip away
'Til what we put off 'til tomorrow
Has now become today

So don't you sit upon the shoreline
And say you're satisfied
Choose to chance the rapids
And dare to dance the tide

[Chorus]

[Bridge]
There's bound to be rough waters
And I know I'll take some falls
But with the good Lord as my captain
I can make it through them all

[Chorus x 2]

[Outro]
Until the river runs dry x 3
  [resolve/long hold on the final “dry”]

---

As you can see the draft with paragraphing and syntax is easier to critique. Further, given that these are lyrics and not a lyric poem, several new questions arise. For instance, does the chorus interact properly with the verse? Is the audience miscued or tricked into singing along? Does “until the river runs dry” mean “forever” or just “until I’ m physically unable”? Could it mean, “until duress stops me”?

These aren’t questions raised by lyric poems.

---

Busker, aside—I have a cogent take on what makes lyrics different from a poem. There was something obvious staring us all in the face that none of us could see. But you saw it.

When a poem is meant to be sung by a performer, it’s lyric.

When the audience is meant to sing along, it’s lyrics.

That’s huge.

I’d like to keep fighting, but mostly because this fight bore fruit.

So, tell me I’m wrong.

If you can’t/din’t want to, then maybe it needs a breather.