Cliches versus Idioms

[Valerie Please]

The dreaded cliche . . . we should absolutely never use them. This is a hard and fast rule. 

But what about idiomatic expressions and vernacular language? Cliches are technically a subset of idioms. Is there a distinction to be drawn between idioms, vernacular language, and cliches? They can arguably be useful for cultural shorthand, establishing a time, place, or worldview. 

Where do we draw the line? Is it total annihilation of idiomatic expressions?

[busker]

The dreaded cliche . . . we should absolutely never use them. This is a hard and fast rule. 

But what about idiomatic expressions and vernacular language? Cliches are technically a subset of idioms. Is there a distinction to be drawn between idioms, vernacular language, and cliches? They can arguably be useful for cultural shorthand, establishing a time, place, or worldview. 

Where do we draw the line? Is it total annihilation of idiomatic expressions?

I don't think poetry is a tool for communication, because we don't live in pre-literate societies. Therefore, the need for a 'cultural shorthand' is questionable - exceptions aside. What hand are you trying to shorten here?

While you may write poetry for any number of reasons, the only reason that a stranger would read it is because he gets mental stimulation out of it. Now obviously, the more he knows about poetry, or the more adept he is at language, the higher the bar (note the idiom: but I'm not writing poetry). And here, readers of poetry, as opposed to writers, tend to be well versed, to borrow an idiom for the pun, in the craft of poetry. Just like, I suppose, hobbyist welders are familiar with the principles of welding.

To this market segment, idioms are lazy and sloppy. Why should I read her copy paste trite? They'd ask. 
Unless you're Rupi Kaur on Instagram.
Are you Rupi Kaur?

[Valerie Please]

The dreaded cliche . . . we should absolutely never use them. This is a hard and fast rule. 

But what about idiomatic expressions and vernacular language? Cliches are technically a subset of idioms. Is there a distinction to be drawn between idioms, vernacular language, and cliches? They can arguably be useful for cultural shorthand, establishing a time, place, or worldview. 

Where do we draw the line? Is it total annihilation of idiomatic expressions?

I don't think poetry is a tool for communication, because we don't live in pre-literate societies. Therefore, the need for a 'cultural shorthand' is questionable - exceptions aside. What hand are you trying to shorten here?

There's a lot here: let's deal with this question first. It's true that poetry did serve a specific and distinct function in a preliterate society, but it was a mnemonic function. Poetry was the first accounting system, the first way to track histories and heritage. And yes, it's true that we have spreadsheets and Facebook for that now. But why strip poetry of its roots and its cultural heritage? The notion that we are writing poetry to be incomprehensible seems very odd to me. I appreciate the argument that you are making for higher mental activity and intellectualism, however the mere fact that we are having these discussions on a forum belies the idea that poetry isn't supposed to be communicative. If we aren't trying to communicate *something* through poetry, then I'm not sure why this forum exists. I suppose it could exist as an intellectual pissing contest to see who can be the most erudite and inscrutable. Oh, but why stop there? 

To this market segment, idioms are lazy and sloppy. Why should I read her copy paste trite? They'd ask. 
Unless you're Rupi Kaur on Instagram.
Are you Rupi Kaur?

Ha I wish! She's sold like three million copies of poetry books. I've never read her, personally. I googled her and yes "Milk and Honey" sounds cliche. It's also an idea that has a rich cultural legacy, that can transmit an entire worldview as an allusion in an efficient way. The pitfall, in my opinion, is just doing what you've said and just recycling the same thing. But, is it not possible to take something from the cradle of civilization and use it in a new way? Is that also not a potential intellectual project? Is that not what someone like Garcia Lorca or Bob Dylan does: act as a crucible of cultural heritage and creating a new project that knows where it's been and knows where it's going?
 

[dukealien]

Just an idea on the distinction. In "Slaughterhouse Five," Vonnegut uses a cliche ("so it goes") repeatedly, every time someone dies. Then, out of the blue, as he's describing the firestorm at Dresden, he baldly states how many hundreds of thousands were killed then and inserts the cliche without further comment. The effect is devastating: all of a sudden we're not playing fatuous sci-fi games any more.

So... a lot of cliche vs. idiom is context. Thoughtlessness makes cliche; usage makes idiom. And so it goes?

Caesar probably said "the die is cast" a couple of times during every evening's game of high-stakes knucklebones. Then he crossed the Rubicon, and turned it from an idiom to a cliche? Or vice versa?

[busker]

^^ Caesar even ended his life with a cliche. How unoriginal :-p

[dukealien]

^^ Caesar even ended his life with a cliche. How unoriginal :-p

Yup, until recently a lot of semi-educated people would say "et tu, Brute"  to their assassins without getting the context/subtlety (so you're with them, too, kid).  Definitely a cliche, there.  If he'd said, "Pompey, thou art avenged" it would never have caught on.

[Exit]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

[Tiger the Lion]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying.

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

I think "conscious choice" is the key, at least for me. And the same goes for many other poetic devices. When the poet is properly aware of context, has a specific intent and owns it, he can get away with much more than a novice churning them out willy nilly.

[Exit]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying.

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

I think "conscious choice" is the key, at least for me. And the same goes for many other poetic devices. When the poet is properly aware of context, has a specific intent and owns it, he can get away with much more than a novice churning them out willy nilly.

I entirely agree. The problem is, that "conscious choice" depends on at least two things. 1) that you have made it clear in the poem that it was a conscious choice—which can often defeat the purpose of doing it. Or 2) You're (insert any well-established writer here).

[busker]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

Even though Greek was the Lingua Franca of the empire, surely for Jules Latin was his Mater Lingua?

[Exit]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

Even though Greek was the Lingua Franca of the empire, surely for Jules Latin was his Mater Lingua?

You could argue about it, but wouldn't that be ironic. What is cliche to you pair of dipshits isn't to someone who's had a proper education.

[Valerie Please]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

Ugh, an Eastern European cleaning lady. OF COURSE!

Now, my Mexican cleaning lady is well-versed in Greek and always shouts, "kai su, teknon" when she burns her finger flipping the tortillas she cooks me. Because Latin too easy for her, isn’t it?

[Tiger the Lion]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying.

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

I think "conscious choice" is the key, at least for me. And the same goes for many other poetic devices. When the poet is properly aware of context, has a specific intent and owns it, he can get away with much more than a novice churning them out willy nilly.

I entirely agree. The problem is, that "conscious choice" depends on at least two things. 1) that you have made it clear in the poem that it was a conscious choice—which can often defeat the purpose of doing it. Or 2) You're (insert any well-established writer here).

I disagree there's a problem. You don't have to be an established writer to consciously and effectively use cliche to advance a poem's mood, setting or plot. And if you have the skills to do that, I doubt very much you'd feel the need to announce it for slower readers. Cliiches and idioms are as much a part of the language as metaphor and allusion. None of them succeed without full consideration by the writer.

[Exit]

I think "conscious choice" is the key, at least for me. And the same goes for many other poetic devices. When the poet is properly aware of context, has a specific intent and owns it, he can get away with much more than a novice churning them out willy nilly.

I entirely agree. The problem is, that "conscious choice" depends on at least two things. 1) that you have made it clear in the poem that it was a conscious choice—which can often defeat the purpose of doing it. Or 2) You're (insert any well-established writer here).

I disagree there's a problem. You don't have to be an established writer to consciously and effectively use cliche to advance a poem's mood, setting or plot. And if you have the skills to do that, I doubt very much you'd feel the need to announce it for slower readers. Cliches and idioms are as much a part of the language as metaphor and allusion. None of them succeeds without full consideration by the writer.

Firstly, I should have said "at least one of two things" and not "at least two things". 
Given that, if you are an established writer people intuitively read you "as if" you are making conscious choices. So an established writer can break the rules and will be analyzed more closely rather than written-off as ignorant of the rules. To give a heavy-handed example, Picasso was already an established painter before Les Demoiselles d'Avignon—everyone knew he could "do the rules" and paint. So it wasn't a case of "oh we can dismiss this for being amateur and uneducated"—critics (and fellow artists) had to assume he painted it that way for a "reason". Which irritated a lot of them. Mattisse called it a joke. Finnegans Wake was the same. Everyone hated it. But the fact that both these works of original art came from established artists—love them or hate them—had to be taken seriously. 
That's one.
Secondly, by "making it clear" I didn't mean to imply that the author should explicitly say "hey, I just did gone done me a cliche there, it was supposed to be like that". I meant that it should be somewhat clear to the reader (idiots notwithstanding) that you have broken a rule (the "cliche rule" in this case) purposefully—knowingly. You know why most people look at a Picasso or a Basquiat or a Joyce or even a Beckett and think "I could do that"? It's because they don't quite understand why they couldn't.

---

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

Ugh, an Eastern European cleaning lady. OF COURSE!

Now, my Mexican cleaning lady is well-versed in Greek and always shouts, "kai su, teknon" when she burns her finger flipping the tortillas she cooks me. Because Latin too easy for her, isn’t it?

No, I would say that she knows that Julius Caesar would have spoken Greek and not Latin, because like most upper-class Romans at the time he was a pretentious prick—something of which I would know nothing about.

[busker]

Caesar probably said "kai su, teknon" [και συ τεκνον]... just saying, you might want to be a bit less ready to call people "semi-educated".

anyway, with regard to cliche, one surely wants to avoid them, unless that's part of it, part of the thing, part of the style, the conscious choice. Idioms are slightly different, as they are often regional or date specific. "Et tu, Brute!" is a cliche in literary circles. But if your eastern European cleaner said it to you... it's contextual. I say, write what you want. Cliche, boring, derivative. It doesn't matter. No one aims for originality anymore, so why bother. As long as you have a thousand little thumbs-up, you're golden.

Even though Greek was the Lingua Franca of the empire, surely for Jules Latin was his Mater Lingua?

You could argue about it, but wouldn't that be ironic. What is cliche to you pair of dipshits isn't to someone who's had a proper education.

No one actually knows what Caesar’s last words were in any case, and one of the chroniclers of the purported phrase was writing at the time of Nerva (who also made stuff up all the time), so give it a rest.

[dukealien]

Pushing a thread is like pushing a string, but still...

Governor Cuomo proclaimed that "COVID-19 is a metaphor." Berman, Atlantic columnist, retorts that "COVID-19 is NOT a metaphor!"

I disagree. All anyone seems to be able to say is that COVID is like the 1918 influenza, or like the Black Death, like the Hong Kong flu or like polio. I hereby proclaim: "COVID-19 is a simile!"

[CRNDLSM]

You could argue about it, but wouldn't that be ironic. What is cliche to you pair of dipshits isn't to someone who's had a proper education.
[/quote]

Cracks me up when educated people resort to name calling in an argument, as if it ever strengthens an argument.  Most educated folk know they're really arguing an audience and not an opponent.

[busker]

  Most educated folk know they're really arguing an audience and not an opponent.

Only those who've not had a 'proper education', which constitutes, apparently, the study of Classics, and engagement in mutual sodomy. Like a middle class wanker's perception of what it was like to be posh in the 19th century.

[Valerie Please]

Poem on this subject, please!

Pushing a thread is like pushing a string, but still...

Governor Cuomo proclaimed that "COVID-19 is a metaphor."  Berman, Atlantic columnist, retorts that "COVID-19 is NOT a metaphor!"

I disagree.  All anyone seems to be able to say is that COVID is like the 1918 influenza, or like the Black Death, like the Hong Kong flu or like polio.  I hereby proclaim:  "COVID-19 is a simile!"

[Wjames]

I don't think there's a real difference outside of when they are used in writing.

I think the main difference would be when idioms/cliches are are used in dialogue, and dialogue is not heavily used in poetry.

People speak in idioms and cliches all the time, it's natural - when used in dialogue, I don't have a problem with cliches/idioms, it's simply realism.

When idioms or cliches are used in prose or really any form of writing other than dialogue, it is usually just laziness - this is creative writing and cliches and idioms are generally not creative.

My own definition would be cliches and idioms are essentially the same thing, but I would call it an idiom (acceptable) when used in dialogue, and cliche (lazy) when used in almost anything else.

Of course there are exceptions, and I'm sure there are some great examples of cliches being used to great effect in non-dialogue writing, but it would definitely be the exception, rather than the rule.