Discusion question: Whats with this meter break in" The Rabbit- Hunter" Robert Frost

[HaleINthewind]

The Rabbit- Hunter by Robert Frost

Careless and still
The hunter lurks
With gun depressed,
Facing alone
The alder swamps
Ghastly snow- white.
And his hound works
In the offing there
Like one possessed,
And yelps delight
And sings and romps,
Bringing him on
The shadowy hare
For him to rend
And deal a death
That he nor it
(Nor I) have wit
To comprehend.

---

I have read this over and over today. I was using it to try to learn meter. I think this is mostly in Iambic Di-meter but two lines in bold are 2.5 feet. I can not for the life of me figure out why he would have done that and I was hoping maybe someone else would have a clue. Any guesses would be greatly appreciated; I am sure he didn't just do it for the hell of it- maybe... Thank you!

[Brownlie]

Did you Google it?

[HaleINthewind]

Ashamedly , I did not. I guess for some reason I thought the all knowing world wide would not know the answer this time. Ill google and see what I find

---

So, looks like people just wanna talk about the " Mending wall" by Robert Frost. It didn't take long to realize my assumptions were very close if not spot on to right. The web may not know this one.

[billy]

i can't help as i'm not a meter guru, though to me the sonics sound right. even though the meter is off. like two unstressed equaling a stress.

[ellajam]

I say:
in the OFFing THERE
the SHADowy HARE

Two accents per line, I don't have a problem. And note those two lines rhyme, it's a poem!

I learned meter working with the explanations in our practice threads then putting some in the workshops for members to poke at, great fun, you might give the Poetry Practice threads a read.

[kolemath]

A few other lines aren't iamb, in bold

The Rabbit- Hunter by Robert Frost

Careless and still
The hunter lurks
With gun depressed,
Facing alone
The alder swamps
Ghastly snow- white.
And his hound works
In the offing there
Like one possessed,
And yelps delight
And sings and romps,
Bringing him on
The shadowy hare
For him to rend
And deal a death
That he nor it
(Nor I) have wit
To comprehend.

---

I have read this over and over today. I was using it to try to learn meter. I think this is mostly in Iambic Di-meter but two lines in bold are 2.5 feet. I can not for the life of me figure out why he would have done that and I was hoping maybe someone else would have a clue. Any guesses would be greatly appreciated; I am sure he didn't just do it for the hell of it- maybe... Thank you!

Frost said to pick a meter for your theme then write words to fit the meter so there's prob a reason

1, 4, 6, q12, 13    
dactylic for doubting the kill?

7,8 anapestic
Alter the rhythm for the dumb dog?

 Iamb for killing?

[Brownlie]

I'm sure someone's written about this, but you're right, you get mostly mending wall. Found some stuff on how it's sort of a force beyond comprehension that's driving the killing. 

Lines like "in the offing there" sound conversational, which sort of contrasts the grand theme of death. That seems to be part of his whole aesthetic.  

What other people said about the meter might be right. 

If you want a b.s. reason why he did it: Maybe the speaker's ability to comprehend or make sense of the incident with logic and meter ran away from him in those lines.

[HaleINthewind]

I say:
in the OFFing THERE
the SHADowy HARE

Two accents per line, I don't have a problem. And note those two lines rhyme, it's a poem!

I learned meter working with the explanations in our practice threads then putting some in the workshops for members to poke at, great fun, you might give the Poetry Practice threads a read.

Ellajam -  How come having the two un accented words for " in the offing there" doesn't throw it off? I get " the shadowy hare" for some reason I was reading it as " the SHAdowY hare.

Ill have to take some more looks at the meter forum in the poetry practice. I get the concept but actually hearing the stresses is so tough for me.

And yes the rhyming! That is what got me the mix of what i perceived as a break in meter with the rhyme I just knew I had t o be missing something. I can't figure out what he must be highlighting or saying there. Anyway thanks for the reply and input.

---

Kolemath- I had no idea there was even a chance of there being any other kind of meter in this besides iambic.

I like the ideas you presented on why the meter may be this way. I do wonder if he used anapestic for the dog why it would of be 7 and 8 and not 9,10 or 11 those seem to really highlight the dog and and his experience which is far different from the speaker and that of the hunter.
Then again if it is iamb for the hunt and kill itself then 9, 10 and 11 are more along those lines.
Good stuff to think about. Thanks for your input!


Billy- thank you for yours as well , It's interesting seeing how many different perceptions of this there are even with just a few of us.

Brownlie- Interesting observation of that seeming conversational; I hadn't noticed. Do you mean part of his whole aesthetic in general or in this poem. The ending is rather conversational as well.

[Brownlie]

Frost is all about using meter to make it sound like people are talking. (Some people think iambic pentameter stuff in particular mimics vocal patterns or something.)

I mean let's be honest "in the offing there" is really kind of redundant ( in the offing means the same thing).  The extra stressed syllable may make it sound more natural.  I guess people sort of  have speech patterns that are sort of rhythmic. Plus, people sometimes add in unnecessary words.

 Frost also does some metaphysical stuff he combines with his type of conversational language: with autumnal apples like dropping in slow motion, cracking the dome of heaven with a  boy (whose possibly very horny) swinging on birch trees,  various paths of life and the people coming together to build walls.

The guy's all out bright eyed and bushy tailed and staring wide eyed at the great unknown. Maybe not so bushy tailed if you really look into it though.

[ellajam]

Hi, Hale, are you reading aloud? The reason those particular unstressed syllables don't throw me off is they are sort of swallowed. A word like shadowy is tricky because the last syllable, even if pronounced with a slight rise, does not come up to the first syllable. a SHADowy CORner. One has to listen carefully. I learned the hard way when I tried to rhyme abacus here :

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-16457...light=nicu

I had to listen to it in a googled pronounciation search multiple times before I got a clue as to what people where telling me. Sometimes it's not so easy.

Ha, I just started reading that thread myself, same problem with escapades. Those types of words are fun to play with and more interesting than true/blue but full of boobytraps.

[HaleINthewind]

Brownlie-
That is good to know about the iambic pentameter, I had never heard that ( probably because I am a fresh babe in the world of actually paying attention to whats going on in poetry and writing in general). Which poem is that with the apple and the tree and the heavens? That sounds like it would be a good one to read. I am locked and loaded with almost every poetry book from my local library- one including a Giant frost book.

Ellajam-

I have been reading it aloud. I know that the stressed syllables are supposed get higher or last longer but I just don't hear it most times. Especially out of my own mouth. listening to the words on google is a great idea! hearing myself is just confusing, and getting my boyfriend to read and re- read the same word over and over....and over....and over.... Probobly wont be good for our relationship lol I would like to keep this one around.

P.s I greatly enjoyed the finished product of that poem. It is amazing how different it is from your start. So you had to keep listening to google untill you heard how abucus and fuss weren't rhymes? That sounds like my life right now with writing. So much I didn't know I didn't know.

Thank you to both of you for helping me on my journey to reach things that are just above my head. I appreciate you both taking the time.
Ive got a lot of reading syllable counting and google word listening to do!

---

Ellajam- Just read the later coments in that thread you shared the link to. I am going to have to look up abucus on google. I hear it as AB u CUS as well. So I now know thats wrong. Thanks

---

Meter no one warned me there were booby traps around every syllable

[ellajam]

I thinks he's talking about this one:

http://www.pigpenpoetry.com/thread-18529.html

[rayheinrich]

"Frost is all about using meter to make it sound like people are talking."
Seems right to me.

When speaking in a conversational way, two itsy-bitsy syllables tend to take about the same
amount of time to say as one larger one.  So it's pretty common to substitute an anapest with
two short un-stressed syllables (di-di-dah) for an iamb (di-dah).  In fact, if you don't do that,
it tends to read awkwardly.

But there are some other reasons to vary meter as well.  One is to purposefully interrupt the
reader's complacency, the comfortable rhythm they've settled into, in order to make them stumble,
to make them pay attention to, to emphasize, a specific line.  (Emily Dickinson -- along with
her slant rhymes, variable-length dashes, and her use of upper-case for emphasis -- just loved to do this.)

And (in even more general) adhering to a strict rhythm often comes across as sing-song. It's the same
problem musicians run into when trying to use a synthetic drum machine.  A human drummer (singer, speaker)
can adjust their beat, their emphasis, to fall slightly before or after where a listener would expect
the beat to occur.  They do this not just to add life, but to manipulate your emotions. (Scientific
studies having shown this to be very effective when used in political speeches.)

Shakespeare is famous for taking wild liberties with his iambic pentameter.  But then, writing that it is
meant to be delivered to an audience by spoken voice can afford to take wild liberties, because there's
an actor (singer, speaker) to lend their own rhythm to them, to make sure and run those itty-bitty syllables
together so the whole damn thing works properly. (I think writing this way, even if it isn't delivered by some
intermediary, is a signal to the reader to read it aloud to themselves; it's a way to convey spoken word on
the page -- poetry has always been more about singing than reading anyway.)

I frequently start a poem in rather casual free verse and then gradually transition it into strict meter.  
In these days of rampant free verse, this is a way to be able to write in meter without calling the reader's
attention to it,  without triggering their stereotypical dislike for it.  

But my main reason for doing it is to be able to transition between casual and serious, effusive and focused --
to really emphasize the content in the latter part of my poem. Starting in strict meter doesn't allow you to
use this tool (unless you intend to free the reader at the end instead of trap them ).

So, as always, it's about bending the reader to your will, making them your bitch.

[HaleINthewind]

Ella- thank you that is exactly it.

---

"Frost is all about using meter to make it sound like people are talking."
Seems right to me.

When speaking in a conversational way, two itsy-bitsy syllables tend to take about the same
amount of time to say as one larger one.  So it's pretty common to substitute an anapest with
two short un-stressed syllables (di-di-dah) for an iamb (di-dah).  In fact, if you don't do that,
it tends to read awkwardly.  You saying this in this way made me get it. 1

But there are some other reasons to vary meter as well.  One is to purposefully interrupt the
reader's complacency, the comfortable rhythm they've settled into, in order to make them stumble,
to make them pay attention to, to emphasize, a specific line.  (Emily Dickinson -- along with
her slant rhymes, variable-length dashes, and her use of upper-case for emphasis -- just loved to do this.) Looks like I will be reading more of her

And (in even more general) adhering to a strict rhythm often comes across as sing-song. It's the same
problem musicians run into when trying to use a synthetic drum machine.  A human drummer (singer, speaker)
can adjust their beat, their emphasis, to fall slightly before or after where a listener would expect
the beat to occur.  They do this not just to add life, but to manipulate your emotions. (Scientific
studies having shown this to be very effective when used in political speeches.)

Shakespeare is famous for taking wild liberties with his iambic pentameter.  But then, writing that it is
meant to be delivered to an audience by spoken voice can afford to take wild liberties, because there's
an actor (singer, speaker) to lend their own rhythm to them, to make sure and run those itty-bitty syllables
together so the whole damn thing works properly. (I think writing this way, even if it isn't delivered by some
intermediary, is a signal to the reader to read it aloud to themselves; it's a way to convey spoken word on
the page -- poetry has always been more about singing than reading anyway.)

I frequently start a poem in rather casual free verse and then gradually transition it into strict meter.  
In these days of rampant free verse, this is a way to be able to write in meter without calling the reader's
attention to it,  without triggering their stereotypical dislike for it.  That is maniacal. Good Idea  ( after I learn meter of course) 

But my main reason for doing it is to be able to transition between casual and serious, effusive and focused --
to really emphasize the content in the latter part of my poem. Starting in strict meter doesn't allow you to
use this tool (unless you intend to free the reader at the end instead of trap them ).

So, as always, it's about bending the reader to your will, making them your bitch.

First off I super appreciate you typing all of this out. Every piece of information in this is valuable to me. I will never hear politicians the same again - mostly because I will actually be paying attention to what ( and how) they are speaking. This is good stuff , good, good stuff. Thank you


ON your last statement all I have to say is firstly:
 Secondly the most important lesson of the day: being a good poet means being a master manipulator....... Poetry just keeps getting better