What style is this?

[Weeded]

Hm strange the link i put in op redirected elsewhere... Thanks tho Milo I didnt put the whole thing up cuz I hadnt anticipated much conjecture. Its refreshing to read again after yalls thoughts on it tho, I had no idea how open to interpretation things get until this.
mike

[rayheinrich]

Reading the whole poem would probably clear a lot of this up:

I Saw I Dreamt Two Men
By Rickey Laurentiis
...

    Oh!     (Well, that's what I get for not doing a proper Google.)

Ray,
I am not bitter or angry, I'm just stating facts. I don't blame people, I would rather watch the next "Avenger" movie than a great (or should that be grate) remake of "Death of a Salesman." Just because an education in art allows  for a more gradated worldview and often a higher degree of empathy, over a black and white mentality that objectifies others, that doesn't make it entertaining, although Sir Phillip Sidney would argue it should be both, although academia has tried its best to make it as boring as possible, which is what you get when you have men with no souls trying to teach the arts. But you disdain higher education (at least in the arts) as a shell game anyway, equivalent to basket weaving.

Frankly, I can't argue with almost all of that.

So that leaves people to their own devices and we must trust in people like you Ray to show them the way, least they stumble and vote Republican 

You forget, I'm in hell; I can't show anybody anywhere.

(By the way: I can't help noticing that the majority of people down here are Republicans.)

[Erthona]

Thanks milo. The ever vigilant!

As Leanne knows the guy and didn't say anything, and there was no indication in the OP that this wasn't the complete poem I thought what was presented was the whole poem and saw no reason to look it up.
If the whole had been provided, Sir Weed-A-Lot, I would have directed you to Beat poetry right off. Geez

Oh BTW Leanne, I was catching up on some older threads that happened whilst I was away. Thanks for the notice of the "Howl" animation. I thought the animation was very "Ralph Bakshi" like, very enjoyable. I'm not sure it went very far in terms of explication in terms of the poem and in some instances it was distracting, but just the visuals were great. How the poem ever got popular with Ginsberg reading it I'll never know, but I guess he did not sound so odd where he was doing his readings. I have always just read it with the voice in my head, and the difference between the two is quite jarring. I obviously had never heard Ginsberg read the poem and although I have seen many clips of him, I'm not sure I have ever heard him. That is of course assuming the voice reading the poem is his, which I do not know why it would not be. I guess my point is, I had read articles about how powerful his readings were, and how changed people were after hearing him read "Howl"; powerful would not be how I would describe it. Still it does not diminish my admiration for the poem, or for Ginsberg himself. Regardless, thanks, I enjoyed it.


dale

[Weeded]

My bad dale theres a link there but it doesnt seem to go to the right page. And Leanne knows who, the poet I mentioned in this thread? Thats pretty cool!

[milo]

The truth is, considering the section as a complete poem and the ensuing discussion was pretty interesting. I had actually considered posting my own rebuttal to Ray's showing the rope was actually envy instead of racism instead of the whole poem. Eh - room full of poets and all.

[Leanne]

I didn't feel it necessary to comment on the whole poem, only on the piece that Weeded was questioning. That small section was rich enough for discussion.

I don't "know" the poet, except in a purely professional sense. I was editor of a journal that published him when he was just about to start his first year at Sarah Lawrence, so it's pretty satisfying to see that he's done well in his poetry.

[Erthona]

Ray wrote "Frankly, I can't argue with almost all of that."

Really? I imagined you would not nearly almost disagree with all of it.

The rope is obviously the snake in the garden of Eden and is representative of how our sins ties us together and keep us from cooperating to fulfill our potential and become a mass Jungian mind without artificial or ego barriers separating us from one another; we keep replaying the archetype of Joseph-Esau over and over. Also, one of the men is actually a woe-man and it shows how man and woe-man are looking in different direction due to the original sin, which is a way to say that their goals are completely opposite. Thus the man uses power to force the woe-man in-line with his goals, and the woe-man lacking power uses lying in the form of manipulation to bring man in-line with her goals. So there is a constant struggle between the sexes that expends all most of the energy we possess fighting either gender wars, or actual wars, leading to a cycle of endemic depression and despair.

dale

[Weeded]

Leanne, still pretty cool and dammit dale, you're losing me again.. but its all good, just more to research hehe

[Leanne]

Less cool than making me realise that I've been doing this shit for a long, long time...

[Weeded]

Im surprised you feel that way. I see it as inspiring, humbling, and even intimidating(which is saying alot where I come from)

[rayheinrich]

Im surprised you feel that way. I see it as inspiring, humbling, and even intimidating(which is saying alot where I come from)

    I see it as inspiring, humbling, intimidating, and "leading to a cycle of endemic depression and despair"*.



Writers starting their first year at Sarah Lawrence sometimes have to "know" an editor to get published.
Professional? Yes. Pure? Well, it beats (so I'm told) mating with Kangaroos. Sheep, on the other hand...

The "rope" is "language".

*The ever logical demagogical dale

[Weeded]

I get to use the excuse "I'm young, so I got time." I'm sure the despair will come later

[rayheinrich]

I get to use the excuse "I'm young, so I got time." I'm sure the despair will come later

    I agree, you young people should stick with dejection and depression until
    you gain enough wisdom to truly master despair.

Ray wrote "Frankly, I can't argue with almost all of that."

Really? I imagined you would not nearly almost disagree with all of it.

The rope is obviously the snake in the garden of Eden and is representative of how our sins ties us together and keep us from cooperating to fulfill our potential and become a mass Jungian mind without artificial or ego barriers separating us from one another; we keep replaying the archetype of Joseph-Esau over and over. Also, one of the men is actually a woe-man and it shows how man and woe-man are looking in different direction due to the original sin, which is a way to say that their goals are completely opposite. Thus the man uses power to force the woe-man in-line with his goals, and the woe-man lacking power uses lying in the form of manipulation to bring man in-line with her goals. So there is a constant struggle between the sexes that expends all most of the energy we possess fighting either gender wars, or actual wars, leading to a cycle of endemic depression and despair.

dale

    The unequivocal nature of this leaves me with two minds which find themselves united in the level of
    agreement they share with your explication of the material at hand to the extent that it's correlation
    with the subject is imaginable.

[Erthona]

But of coarse...


dale

[rayheinrich]

But of coarse...  
dale

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix..."

[rowens]

If I read a poem in 2003 that had a magical affect on me though I was ignorant of a lot of things about it, then in 2010 I heard or read something that added dimensions to the poem, I feel that's a richer experience than having it all footnoted or cited online or told by a college teacher at the first reading of it. I think ignorance and mystery adds to your experience of a poem, and has it pay off over time if you keep it close to you.

---

Reading a poem wrongly might open you up to new ideas of your own that you wouldn't have had had you understood what you were reading perfectly and immediately.

[Weeded]

Rowens,
You remind me of my French teacher in 6th grade. The course was a 3 year course, and at the end of each year she showed us a film called The Red Balloon; she said this film would show us the capacity of our ability to perceive metaphor (she said this all in french too, crazy lady). I agree completely, but I honestly dont see the hurt in knowing right away by being taught. Sure you may grow through a lack of understanding, but you may also grow through understanding. Idk there's pros and cons to both I suppose. A non-related event i could see as relatable would be a mechanic who learned by being taught everything and a mechanic who figured it out himself. The mechanic who was taught might know things the other doesnt, the other could figure it out tho. Idk man haha thats a very important point to bring up tho, thanks
mike

[ellajam]

I hear you, rowens. And it is not the same as a mechanic learning a trade. Poetry is so open-ended, in so many ways.

Rowens wrote:
Reading a poem wrongly might open you up to new ideas of your own that you wouldn't have had had you understood what you were reading perfectly and immediately.

Hearing the readers's responses, the great grace of a site like this, is so wonderful and interesting for just this. It's satisfying when a reader gets it but it's truly illuminating when they get it differently than what I was writing, or thought I was writing. It's lovely to be read by thinking readers who are following their own paths through the poem.

Yes, learning the mechanics is great, useful and fun to advance through, both in writing and reading. As a writer it is good to close doors to ambiguity that lead nowhere, but openings that lead to different paths, and they will change with a reader's own passage of time and experience, are a lovely bonus and part of the fun of it.

[Weeded]

l wasnt comparing a mechanic to a poet, I was comparing the learning processes; there's the way where one is mentored through the process and possibly even discouraged to make mistakes, and the other where the individual learns through mistakes, through trial-and-error.

[Erthona]

There is the old adage that there is no point in reinventing the wheel. Learn what is already known and then build on that. In terms of a poem, it depends on who is doing the reading and why. If the reader is just someone who likes to read poetry and has no higher aspiration, sure if they want only to get what they can get on their own, but it is rather pointless to to cast away education about literature that helps a person develop not only in understanding, but also in developing a skill set if that person wishes to make writing an avocation or even something more. What I never understand is why people argue for less, instead of taking advantage of every opportunity that presents itself. I just don't don't understand that mentality.

dale