a mosque at ground zero

[billy]

you said;

Since we're serious, let's be accurate. There is no "Cordoba Group" associated with the project.

actually to say "cordoba group" as a group of people who invest under the name " cordoba whatever" is semantics. it is being made to look like the "cordoba whatever" are the main investors and sometimes the only investors.

Your ravings about the muslim peril have been totally unverifiable. If you insist on this argument without supporting it with something other than paranoid speculation, I don't see how you can expect me to take you seriously.

i don't expect anything from you, to expect me too seems rather impish of you. i put my opinions forward and you accept them or you don't

Sorry, but you can't define bureaucracy as

if they don't like they kill it with red tape. it's called bureaucracy

... and then switch to a dictionary definition that doesn't include malicious intent.

actually i just did, or did you miss that part? in fact bureaucracy is often not bureaucracy unless it's used with malicious intent. to think otherwise is asinine

And your apparent eagerness to see the project fail is repugnant.

and i shall lose sleep because of it? should another project come to the for which isn't in anyway connected with hammas it would have my full support

zahir spoke on cnn as a rep of the cordoba house project. that none of soho investors stood up and said "sorry he doesn't speak on our behalf"
leads me (not you, or anyone else, but me) to believe the project isn't as
full of universal love as has been projected.

I'm not done with you yet.

as for you not finishing with me. i have to prove you wrong by no further replying to you in these threads. i am already spoken for as someone elses dog.

have a good day debating with yourself

[billy]

you can say the same thing about wanting to build a sinagogue at the site,for me the israeli government is a terrorist organisation

yes which is why if they tried to build a synagogue in palistine i wouldn't agree either?

let make no bones about this even some muslim leaders are against this particular mosque being built.


i'd say after reading they will pull out and build it else where and that by doing so they will win the hearts of the people even new yorkers who will then give donations to a new mosque somewhere else, that it could have been a simple stunt to generate the funds needed to build a mosque or fund a company with profit.

They also hope the move will be seen as a show of sensitivity to families of the victims of the 9/11 attacks, and to the American public generally. they didn't stop to think of the outcome before they stared

Another factor in the apparent climbdown is a lack of funds to pay for construction of the center, estimated to cost a hundred million dollars. Backers hope moving it will lead to a wave of support, accompanied by cash donations.

source;
nice plan if it works. set american against american in order to generate donations.

[altezon]

Since we're serious, let's be accurate. There is no "Cordoba Group" associated with the project.

actually to say "cordoba group" as a group of people who invest under the name " cordoba whatever" is semantics. it is being made to look like the "cordoba whatever" are the main investors and sometimes the only investors.

It isn't semantics when you're making the identity of these people a focus by maligning their intent.

Many businesses call themselves, "The Cordoba Group", e.g.:

http://cordobagroup.com/
http://www.manta.com/c/mmy1lx9/cordoba-group-inc
http://www.cordobagroup.co.uk/

None of these have any connection with Cordoba House.

Your ravings about the muslim peril have been totally unverifiable. If you insist on this argument without supporting it with something other than paranoid speculation, I don't see how you can expect me to take you seriously.

i don't expect anything from you, to expect me too seems rather impish of you.
i put my opinions forward and you accept them or you don't .

Right, I'll rephrase: Oh please, could you support your ravings about the
muslim peril with something other than paranoid speculation? Thanks so much.

Sorry, but you can't define bureaucracy as

if they don't like they kill it with red tape. it's called bureaucracy

... and then switch to a dictionary definition that doesn't include malicious intent.

actually i just did, or did you miss that part? in fact bureaucracy is often not bureaucracy unless it's used with malicious intent.

You may have a point there.

Your apparent eagerness to see the project fail is repugnant.

and i shall lose sleep because of it? should another project come to the for which isn't in anyway connected with hammas it would have my full support

zahir spoke on cnn as a rep of the cordoba house project. that none of soho investors stood up and said "sorry he doesn't speak on our behalf"
leads me (not you, or anyone else, but me) to believe the project isn't as
full of universal love as has been projected.

As far as I can tell, Zahar endorsed the project without claiming to be its representative.
Perhaps no one disputed Zahar's connection because he hadn't claimed any.
Since you're the one shoveling crap on the people involved with the project,
you should be the one to present credible evidence that they deserve it. So look it up.
Your carelessness with details makes your unsupported recollection suspect.

I'm not done with you yet.

as for you not finishing with me. i have to prove you wrong by no further replying to you in these threads. i am already spoken for as someone elses dog.
have a good day debating with yourself

Well said. But I still invite you to back up what you say or have the courage to alter your position.

source;
nice plan if it works. set american against american in order to generate donations.

Rauf is an American. If this orchestrated bigotry runs his project out of town it will be a tragedy for our country.

[billy]

the cordoba initiative is a group of investors and can be called cordoba group
we are taking about these people as a group not individuals. it is a company. it is a company/organisation called the cordoba initiative it is a a group of people. what you imply is that i can't call it the cordoba organisation either. is that what you're saying. by calling it a group or org i give people the wrong impression? not that i have called it org. the thing is in the context of this thread it can be taken as a given that the cordoba group is also the cordoba org and also the cordoba initiative. you're playing semantics and playing them badly.

As far as I can tell, Zahar endorsed the project without claiming to be its representative.
Perhaps no one disputed Zahar's connection because he hadn't claimed any.
Since you're the one shoveling crap on the people involved with the project,
you should be the one to present credible evidence that they deserve it. So look it up.
Your carelessness with details makes your unsupported recollection suspect.

he was the face of it. that it has the endorsement of a known (ex) terrorist is what worries me, that no one connected to the project states. "he's not speaking on our behalf"

if i was opening an animal sanctuary and a well known person who was an ex manager of a chinese restaurant which had convictions for killing cats and serving them up as lunch said "i think it's a good idea" on national tv, i'd say "that person has nothing to do with our project" and be extremely vociferous about it.
that you said or agreed that Zahir endorsed the project is enough for me, i believe you already.

rauf could also be a pawn but that wouldn't fit in with your one minded view that all muslims are good muslims and such a plan to build a mosque at such a place with such a name could'n't have any ulterior motive.

the next long drawn put paste is by a jew , he's also an american.

[Shelomo Alfassa is the former US director of Justice for Jews from Arab Countries and a scholar of Judaic life in Islamic Spain. He lives in New York.]

The world should know that the ‘Cordoba Initiative,’ the New York City based organization desiring to construct a massive Islamic house of prayer at ‘Ground Zero,’ has posted on its website, a peculiar and disingenuous statement indicating the desire to bring back the atmosphere of, “interfaith tolerance and respect that we have longed for since Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together in harmony and prosperity eight hundred years ago.”

I point this out because contemporary scholarship has clearly demonstrated that there was no ‘harmony’ or ‘prosperity’ for non-Muslims in Islamic Spain. The Cordoba Initiative is attempting to revisit some sort of mythical “tolerance and respect” which never existed.

What is irrefutable is that living under Islam, the non-Muslim population was always mandated to submit to Islam, accept discriminatory laws, and make payment of a mandatory Quranic tax imposed upon every non-Muslim. For a period of about 800 years, most of Spain was ruled by Muslims and this area was known as ‘Al-Andalus.’ Islamic rule ended in 1492, when the city of Granada, the last Muslim kingdom in Western Europe, capitulated to the Spanish Catholics.

The Cordoba Initiative is an organization whose very name makes reference to what was, 1,000 years ago, one of the world’s most advanced cities, Cordoba, Al-Andalus (Spain). This was a city that was politically and religiously dominated by Islam, and a city that was conquered by jihad (holy war). Today, there are Islamic groups such as Al-Qaeda that have a dream of seeing a pan-Islamic world that would extend from old Al-Andalus (Spain). This is based upon Islam’s principle of dar-al-Islam, which means a world where Islamic sovereignty prevails over the citizenry. Dar-al-Islam is attained through jihad and the media is replete with Al- Qaeda’s calls for jihad and their claims to Al-Andalus and its major cities such as Cordoba.

Clearly, Islamic Cordoba was once a city where a number of intellectual Muslims such as Averroes (Ibn-Rushd), influenced European thought with Arab philosophy related to the scientific teachings of Aristotle. In mathematics, the Arabs built upon the foundations of Greek mathematicians. At one point there were dozens of free schools in Cordoba for the education of poor Arabs and at some point there existed some 600 mosques. However, even with all of this scholastic and societal grandeur, the route to get to such a point of magnificence was through violent warfare.

Not only were successive battles for Spanish cities bloody, but desiring more than Spain--the Arabs declared a jihad against France, then crossed the Pyrenees, and in successive swarms spread over the southern regions of the French countryside, slaughtering the Christians by thousands, and burning their churches to the ground before being halted.

We must remember that a practice associated with conquering Islamic armies was the construction of a mosque at the location where their triumphant battle was won. Thus, this modern Islamic organization is seeking to build a mosque at the site of 9/11 attack—an attack which was carried out by 19 Muslim hijackers who considered their mission holy war.

Insomuch, it is this man's opinion that a Muslim house of prayer that would be cemented in the ashes of catastrophe at the foot of New York's lost Twin Towers would be a symbolic victory flag for Muslims who seek the destruction of America. Further, it is my honest opinion that no matter how the construction of a mosque at ‘Ground Zero’ may be perceived by well-meaning Americans, the construction of a mosque on the spot where Al-Qaeda brought jihad to the United States will unquestionably represent victory to the worldwide forces of Radical Islam.

so i say, by all means build a mosque, build anything but do it for the right reasons.

oh and as i said in a previous post it does look like it was a ploy to generate funding and not actually build where you say they already have permission.

[altezon]

the cordoba initiative is a group of investors and can be called cordoba group
we are taking about these people as a group not individuals. it is a company. it is a company/organisation called the cordoba initiative it is a a group of people. what you imply is that i can't call it the cordoba organisation either. is that what you're saying. by calling it a group or org i give people the wrong impression?

No. "The Cordoba House group" would do. Or "The Cordoba Initiative".

As I said, you think it's important who the people are,
so it's important that you identify them adequately.

They aren't any of these:

http://cordobagroup.com/
http://www.manta.com/c/mmy1lx9/cordoba-group-inc
http://www.cordobagroup.co.uk/

As far as I can tell, Zahar endorsed the project without claiming to be its representative.
Perhaps no one disputed Zahar's connection because he hadn't claimed any.
Since you're the one shoveling crap on the people involved with the project,
you should be the one to present credible evidence that they deserve it. So look it up.
Your carelessness with details makes your unsupported recollection suspect.

he was the face of it. that it has the endorsement of a known (ex) terrorist is what worries me, that no one connected to the project states. "he's not speaking on our behalf".

that you said or agreed that Zahir endorsed the project is enough for me, i believe you already.

I think I've established your standard of proof for telling us:

i think the problem is that the person or group who want to build/start the mosque at zero has a bad past when it comes to showing peace and harmony. he's said some pretty inflammatory things as well. anyway, i think the idea is good but the person formulating it might not be.

build it by all means but at least make sure those in charge are'nt going to be ex hamas leaders. as leader of hamas he said and did too many nasty things to make him a believable person (his position which is fact, means no source of his hatred for jews and the west is needed, it is and was always a given) to front such a project in such a place. if anything his past makes his motives highly suspect.

zaher is the front man. and he's an ex terrorist recognised as such.

why is non sequiter that i find the front man (spokesperson) for the mosques to be built an ex hammas leader (fact) unsuitable to not only be taking part but to be seemingly orchestrating things under the guise of cordoba, who as of yet has not put any money forward.

the ex hamas leader has been seen to speak on behalf of the soho group on cnn.

All that venom and misinformation because you're not aware of
anyone connected with the Cordoba Initiative having denounced Zahar.

rauf could also be a pawn but that wouldn't fit in with your one minded view that all muslims are good muslims and such a plan to build a mosque at such a place with such a name could'n't have any ulterior motive.

Please, your troll is showing.

the next long drawn put paste is by a jew , he's also an american.

[Shelomo Alfassa is the former US director of Justice for Jews from Arab Countries and a scholar of Judaic life in Islamic Spain. He lives in New York.]

(blah blah blah, Alfassa's diatribe here)

so i say, by all means build a mosque, build anything but do it for the right reasons.

Being American doesn't validate Alfassa's point of view or
justify our interfering with someone's religious freedom.

[addy]

Yeah, because Islam was the only oppressive and intolerant religion

Seriously though. What makes the issue so hard is that ground zero is no longer a "neutral area" as it were... it carries a history and symbolism all its own. At this point it's impossible to build anything casually on it. I bet no one would want anything blase like a mall or a parking lot be built on it either

I disagree that building a mosque is an "insult" to New Yorkers; I believe only a small minority of Muslims would consider 9/11 a "victory of Islam" and a majority would see it for the horrid event it was. But what I will agree with is that given the kind of history the place has for that city, it's better to build something that will more universally capture that spirit.

[altezon]

Yeah, because Islam was the only oppressive and intolerant religion

Seriously though. What makes the issue so hard is that ground zero is no longer a "neutral area" as it were... it carries a history and symbolism all its own. At this point it's impossible to build anything casually on it. I bet no one would want anything blase like a mall or a parking lot be built on it either

I disagree that building a mosque is an "insult" to New Yorkers; I believe only a small minority of Muslims would consider 9/11 a "victory of Islam" and a majority would see it for the horrid event it was. But what I will agree with is that given the kind of history the place has for that city, it's better to build something that will more universally capture that spirit.

I'm sick of hearing about it myself. A quarter-million people died in the
Indian Ocean tsunamis, but they're not memorializing all the coastlines.

[billy]

(blah blah blah, Alfassa's diatribe here)

only mods or admin use red outside the sewer.

I'm sick of hearing about it myself. A quarter-million people died in the
Indian Ocean tsunamis, but they're not memorializing all the coastlines.

thread closed / admin