The trochaic inversion

[fastmarshmallow]

I'm really trying to wrap my head around this. It's seductively frustrating. 

Before I attempt my own, can someone check if I'm interpreting this correctly?

dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB)

First feet is inverted -->

DUM dah (TROCHEE) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB)


So if I were to apply this to the opening line of Frost's Birches:

When I see birches bend to left and right

WHENi (TROCHEE) seeBIR (IAMB) chesBEND (IAMB) toLEFT (IAMB) andRIGHT (IAMB)
DUM dah dah DUM dah DUM dah DUM dah DUM  

So am I right in saying there is a trochaic inversion in the first feet? Stress on the first 'WHEN' and then I read 'I see' in unstressed, rapid succession, before the stress lands again on "BIR-".

yep - that is exactly right

I also have another question. What is it called when the line is in trochaic meter and then there is an inversion to an iamb i.e., basically the other way around? See below:

DUM dah DUM dah DUM dah 
dah DUM DUM dah DUM dah

It doesn't really count as, say, a 'spondaic substitution' - or does it? Because a spondee needs to be contained to one foot right i.e., DUM DUM dah DUM?

hmmm --  don't see it very frequently:



the reason I think is because the natural tendency would be to demote the second line into iamb - anapest - catalexis

I went to post 5 different couplets before deleting them all and deciding they sounded better that way, I am not sure the exact scansion theory that causes that.

Still - and someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I think it is still called trochaic inversion, i just think it is less likely to occur in the beginning of a line.

Got it. Yeah, I thought so - I think I'm just stalling now and need to actually start writing it!

[milo]

I'm really trying to wrap my head around this. It's seductively frustrating. 

Before I attempt my own, can someone check if I'm interpreting this correctly?

dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB)

First feet is inverted -->

DUM dah (TROCHEE) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB) dah DUM (IAMB)


So if I were to apply this to the opening line of Frost's Birches:

When I see birches bend to left and right

WHENi (TROCHEE) seeBIR (IAMB) chesBEND (IAMB) toLEFT (IAMB) andRIGHT (IAMB)
DUM dah dah DUM dah DUM dah DUM dah DUM  

So am I right in saying there is a trochaic inversion in the first feet? Stress on the first 'WHEN' and then I read 'I see' in unstressed, rapid succession, before the stress lands again on "BIR-".

yep - that is exactly right

I also have another question. What is it called when the line is in trochaic meter and then there is an inversion to an iamb i.e., basically the other way around? See below:

DUM dah DUM dah DUM dah 
dah DUM DUM dah DUM dah

It doesn't really count as, say, a 'spondaic substitution' - or does it? Because a spondee needs to be contained to one foot right i.e., DUM DUM dah DUM?

hmmm --  don't see it very frequently:



the reason I think is because the natural tendency would be to demote the second line into iamb - anapest - catalexis

I went to post 5 different couplets before deleting them all and deciding they sounded better that way, I am not sure the exact scansion theory that causes that.

Still - and someone feel free to correct me if I am wrong - I think it is still called trochaic inversion, i just think it is less likely to occur in the beginning of a line.

Got it. Yeah, I thought so - I think I'm just stalling now and need to actually start writing it!

of course nobody needs to know any of this stuff to write great poetry but the germ of writing comes from talking aobut writing and reading and studying writing so I still feel it is time well spent

[wasellajam]

So this line works? it's L3 with Li and 2 straight iambs.

on SHAky GROUND but GREW SURE of himSELF

sounds funky to me

[milo]

So this line works? it's L3 with Li and 2 straight iambs.

on SHAky GROUND but GREW SURE of himSELF

sounds funky to me

yes, but don't forget this part:

It is used to greatest effect at the beginning of a line, lesser in the middle and, dare I say, to no good effect at the end of a line.

[wasellajam]

So this line works? it's L3 with Li and 2 straight iambs.

on SHAky GROUND but GREW SURE of himSELF

sounds funky to me

yes, but don't forget this part:

It is used to greatest effect at the beginning of a line, lesser in the middle and, dare I say, to no good effect at the end of a line.

 well, that settles that. Maybe I'll remember this time. It was an unfortunate rhyme anyway. Thanks

[wasellajam]

So, in general, is a line in IT too short to use up the middle with a trochaic inversion?

Then June rolls in and neighbors clog
the road, no room to turn around;

It sounds okay to me but I worry about disrupting the force pulling the poem along.
Or does "rolls" get demoted, "in" promoted and everyone gets kicked out of school?

[milo]

So, in general, is a line in IT too short to use up the middle with a trochaic inversion?

Then June rolls in and neighbors clog
the road, no room to turn around;

It sounds okay to me but I worry about disrupting the force pulling the poem along.
Or does "rolls" get demoted, "in" promoted and everyone gets kicked out of school?

When I read it, I demote rolls.  If I try to force the accent on rolls it becomes awkward

[wasellajam]

So, in general, is a line in IT too short to use up the middle with a trochaic inversion?

Then June rolls in and neighbors clog
the road, no room to turn around;

It sounds okay to me but I worry about disrupting the force pulling the poem along.
Or does "rolls" get demoted, "in" promoted and everyone gets kicked out of school?

When I read it, I demote rolls.  If I try to force the accent on rolls it becomes awkward

Ugh, I just can't get when it works. So much easier to be strict but less intersting variation.

But aside from this line, go you think it works as well in IT as IP?

[milo]

So, in general, is a line in IT too short to use up the middle with a trochaic inversion?

Then June rolls in and neighbors clog
the road, no room to turn around;

It sounds okay to me but I worry about disrupting the force pulling the poem along.
Or does "rolls" get demoted, "in" promoted and everyone gets kicked out of school?

When I read it, I demote rolls.  If I try to force the accent on rolls it becomes awkward

Ugh, I just can't get when it works. So much easier to be strict but less intersting variation.

But aside from this line, go you think it works as well in IT as IP?

The delightful effect of the metrical variation is still the same but - short answer - it does not work as well in IT and the reason is that ip has 5 feet to play with and one gets replaced making it still overwhelmingly IP while IT only has 4 so it is a little less.  If smoothly executed I don't think it would be an issue, though.

[wasellajam]

When I read it, I demote rolls.  If I try to force the accent on rolls it becomes awkward

Ugh, I just can't get when it works. So much easier to be strict but less intersting variation.

But aside from this line, go you think it works as well in IT as IP?

The delightful effect of the metrical variation is still the same but - short answer - it does not work as well in IT and the reason is that ip has 5 feet to play with and one gets replaced making it still overwhelmingly IP while IT only has 4 so it is a little less.  If smoothly executed I don't think it would be an issue, though.

Thanks for your patience, I’m sure “smoothly executed” is the key.

[Mark A Becker]

But truth is, it's hard to say any one word at the same amplitude as any other. If we're going to designate
every word as either stressed or unstressed, there's a lot of rounding up or down that needs to be done.
I guess we could be more accurate by assigning an amplitude level from zero to ten.

I agree that there are varying degrees of accents. Consider this line:

A ball will bounce, but less, and less.

Though it reads as obvious iambs, the accent 'amplitude' drops off between the 'B' words, and the 'L' words. I find it interesting that it accurately describes a bouncing ball, as the bouncing amplitudes diminish.

I discovered this example in another discussion regarding accents/meters, and found it fascinating.

[wasellajam]

But truth is, it's hard to say any one word at the same amplitude as any other. If we're going to designate
every word as either stressed or unstressed, there's a lot of rounding up or down that needs to be done.
I guess we could be more accurate by assigning an amplitude level from zero to ten.

I agree that there are varying degrees of accents. Consider this line:

A ball will bounce, but less, and less.

Though it reads as obvious iambs, the accent 'amplitude' drops off between the 'B' words, and the 'L' words. I find it interesting that it accurately describes a bouncing ball, as the bouncing amplitudes diminish.

I discovered this example in another discussion regarding accents/meters, and found it fascinating.

Great example, that's finding the poetry in meter, so effective. When I try to purposely use trochaic inversions the line never sounds right to me, this is something to consider.

[wasellajam]

Ugh, I just can't get when it works. So much easier to be strict but less intersting variation.

But aside from this line, go you think it works as well in IT as IP?

The delightful effect of the metrical variation is still the same but - short answer - it does not work as well in IT and the reason is that ip has 5 feet to play with and one gets replaced making it still overwhelmingly IP while IT only has 4 so it is a little less.  If smoothly executed I don't think it would be an issue, though.

Thanks for your patience, I’m sure “smoothly executed” is the key.

So does it work smoothly in these lines?

a tiny sprout safe in his arms, alert

now cousins descend anxious to take their turn

[milo]

The delightful effect of the metrical variation is still the same but - short answer - it does not work as well in IT and the reason is that ip has 5 feet to play with and one gets replaced making it still overwhelmingly IP while IT only has 4 so it is a little less.  If smoothly executed I don't think it would be an issue, though.

Thanks for your patience, I’m sure “smoothly executed” is the key.

So does it work smoothly in these lines?

a tiny sprout safe in his arms, alert

now cousins descend anxious to take their turn

I see 2 inversions

aTIN ySPROUT SAFEin hisARMS - 1 here on SAFEin hisARMS - reads perfectly to me and it is a pleasant metrical deviation

nowCOU sinsde SCEND  (caesura) ANXious toTAKE theirTURN - what you have here is very interesting and if couched in a strong predominant ip meter would work very well (imo) .  You have split the line in 2 with a caesura (it is the pause you are making between SCEND and ANX)  and you have 2 inversions in the line.  The tension in the line is fantastic - i just don't know if the prosaic cousins descending is matching the energy but that is a discussion for another day.

Metrically, both work in very different ways.  The second is more interesting but also probably more dangerous.

[wasellajam]

Thanks for your patience, I’m sure “smoothly executed” is the key.

So does it work smoothly in these lines?

a tiny sprout safe in his arms, alert

now cousins descend anxious to take their turn

I see 2 inversions

aTIN ySPROUT SAFEin hisARMS - 1 here on SAFEin hisARMS - reads perfectly to me and it is a pleasant metrical deviation

nowCOU sinsde SCEND  (caesura) ANXious toTAKE theirTURN - what you have here is very interesting and if couched in a strong predominant ip meter would work very well (imo) .  You have split the line in 2 with a caesura (it is the pause you are making between SCEND and ANX)  and you have 2 inversions in the line.  The tension in the line is fantastic - i just don't know if the prosaic cousins descending is matching the energy but that is a discussion for another day.

Metrically, both work in very different ways.  The second is more interesting but also probably more dangerous.

Thank you milo