What do you wish you'd learned at school about poetry?

[billy]

There is more to poetry than shock value. I loved Bukowski in my teens and when I am drunk I look to him for inspiration, but poetry is so much more than profanity communicates. It can be so much more eloquent. It has guided me through so much loneliness but I would hate if a teacher gave me false praise. Please be everyone honest and remember what art can give us in these times where god is dead. God was patriarchal this is true but now we live in times of scientific bleakness we need things like poetry to teach that we are humans prone to folly... I could go on but it would seem preachy.

i came back to this post.
in these times when god is dead
and
but now we live in times of scientific bleakness
aren't both of those phrases horseshit, (not attacking you by any means) but that's just stereotypical horseshit. i know for (almost a fact) that god is so alive for many people not just on this forum but in the world.
i know for a fact that science and the church now share many world views. we no longer live in the dark ages nor does poetry. who said anything about false praise. (i went back and double checked )
we don't need poetry that tells us we're humans prone to folly
we need poetry to show that we are indeed humans, that we can create, that we can think independently of church and science and anything else we choose and put those thoughts down on paper or computer screen.

[rayheinrich]

Creative writing classes tap into something different than math.
People can discover parts of themselves when they begin to write
and a dedicated writing teacher can really help students who are
struggling in their lives.

And I could say:
"Math classes tap into something different than creative writing classes.
People can discover parts of themselves when they study math and a
dedicated math teacher can really help students who are struggling in
their lives."

Math was like that for me. Salvation comes in many forms (and from
all directions ).

Too much information zone:
Mathematicians are five times more likely than average to play a
musical instrument. Math and music share common roots. Math and
poetry, especially the more systematic forms, do as well.
(Mathematicians must love villanelles ). And they all contain
structures that are parallel to the other's: complex rhythms,
chains of meaning, idiom, metaphor, self-reference, rhyme schemes,
symbolism, parallel structures (ha, yes, recursion), and zillions
more.

---

... but sometimes there's just nothing you can replace a fuck with.

Being able to say 'fuck' in a poem, often precludes the need for it.

Old saying:
A fuck can replace anything, but nothing can replace a fuck.

New saying:
'Fuck' doesn't mean 'fuck' so much as it means 'freedom'.

---

i came back to this post.
in these times when god is dead
and
but now we live in times of scientific bleakness
aren't both of those phrases horseshit?

Why yes, yes they are.

I especially loathe "in times of scientific bleakness".
In my experience, "bleakness" is rarely scientific, mathematical,
or methodical; but experimental, yes, that it is quite often.

[milo]

Creative writing classes tap into something different than math.
People can discover parts of themselves when they begin to write
and a dedicated writing teacher can really help students who are
struggling in their lives.

And I could say:
"Math classes tap into something different than creative writing classes.
People can discover parts of themselves when they study math and a
dedicated math teacher can really help students who are struggling in
their lives."

Math was like that for me. Salvation comes in many forms (and from
all directions ).

Too much information zone:
Mathematicians are five times more likely than average to play a
musical instrument.

What was the sample size on that study? 5 mathematicians?

Math and music share common roots.

plumbing and music share common roots. Animal husbandry and music share common roots. Math and carpentry share common roots. This could go on all day.

Math and
poetry, especially the more systematic forms, do as well.

as does math and almost every single other discipline you could think of. As does poetry and almost every other discipline you could think of. Not a very strong statement.

(Mathematicians must love villanelles ).

Tough to think of an occupation you couldn't make a case for loving villanelles.

And they all contain
structures that are parallel to the other's: complex rhythms,
chains of meaning, idiom, metaphor, self-reference, rhyme schemes,
symbolism, parallel structures (ha, yes, recursion), and zillions
more.

just like every other thing on the planet. Patterns and coincidences seem to show up wherever the seeker looks.

[Leanne]

I would discuss how to teach poetry that shows it for what it has become and how it links with song writting in our modern day culture and I would show example of poems like fucking a hipster with a hatchet, ie poems you will never find on an exam question, because its not about the second world war, yawn.

Hells yeah! I love that poem with quite an unholy passion.

[rayheinrich]

What was the sample size on that study? 5 mathematicians?

2.5 with a confidence level of 20%

plumbing and music share common roots. Animal husbandry and music share common roots. Math and carpentry share common roots. This could go on all day.

as does math and almost every single other discipline you could think of. As does poetry and almost every other discipline you could think of. Not a very strong statement.

just like every other thing on the planet. Patterns and coincidences seem to show up wherever the seeker looks.

Sure, and if you want to make generalizations that broad,
then Yes = NO and your grandma really does have wheels.
(Pardon me, but your null hypothesis is showing.)

Tough to think of an occupation you couldn't make a case for loving villanelles.

Unfetterists, libertarians (not to be confused with the political quasi-group), unitarians...
In fact, using your "equivocal connection" model, it's all occupations as well as no occupations.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

[milo]

What was the sample size on that study? 5 mathematicians?

2.5 with a confidence level of 20%

plumbing and music share common roots. Animal husbandry and music share common roots. Math and carpentry share common roots. This could go on all day.

as does math and almost every single other discipline you could think of. As does poetry and almost every other discipline you could think of. Not a very strong statement.

just like every other thing on the planet. Patterns and coincidences seem to show up wherever the seeker looks.

Sure, and if you want to make generalizations that broad,
then Yes = NO and your grandma really does have wheels.
(Pardon me, but your null hypothesis is showing.)

Tough to think of an occupation you couldn't make a case for loving villanelles.

Unfetterists, libertarians (not to be confused with the political quasi-group), unitarians...
In fact, using your "equivocal connection" model, it's all occupations as well as no occupations.

War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.

hard to believe in a political stance as an occupation, but if you say so.

[Brownlie]

There is more to poetry than shock value. I loved Bukowski in my teens and when I am drunk I look to him for inspiration, but poetry is so much more than profanity communicates. It can be so much more eloquent. It has guided me through so much loneliness but I would hate if a teacher gave me false praise. Please be everyone honest and remember what art can give us in these times where god is dead. God was patriarchal this is true but now we live in times of scientific bleakness we need things like poetry to teach that we are humans prone to folly... I could go on but it would seem preachy.

i came back to this post.
in these times when god is dead
and
but now we live in times of scientific bleakness
aren't both of those phrases horseshit, (not attacking you by any means) but that's just stereotypical horseshit. i know for (almost a fact) that god is so alive for many people not just on this forum but in the world.
i know for a fact that science and the church now share many world views. we no longer live in the dark ages nor does poetry. who said anything about false praise. (i went back and double checked )
we don't need poetry that tells us we're humans prone to folly
we need poetry to show that we are indeed humans, that we can create, that we can think independently of church and science and anything else we choose and put those thoughts down on paper or computer screen.

You make some good points

[rowens]

Can I come be your opening act. I've been working on some gags to be tried out in front of an audience. And I don't know what I wanted to learn in school. I failed English 10 so many times, I must have played every part in Julius Ceasar; I know I had to have played the Soothsayer a dozen times.

[Todd]

I missed getting my comment in, but I'm sure you covered this.

How about: That it doesn't suck.

[jdeirmend]

Leanne, I think so many have offered some really good ideas already.

If I can add anything, and if it's possible within the lecture format, it would be this:

1. Take whatever pains are necessary to teach the concept of an image as the fundamental building block of poetry
(you CAN teach this to "remedial" students, and in 15 minutes or less. It all depends on how you engage them).
2. Make all of the kids compose a short free-verse poem, perhaps on a goofy/funny/culturally relevant theme. Require them to use two or three images at least.
(You might even suggest a few different themes, and have the kids pick between them, or ask them to come up with them.)
3. Invite a workable number of them to share their work aloud, and have it workshopped. This measure can be implemented as simply as this: Ask the students to respond to each other's poems, not in terms of whether they "liked it or not," but what it made them think or feel, and what it seemed to mean.
4. Refer them to some resource that will keep them engaged as readers and writers. (If you send them to the forum, we can help you to build an army of future poets )

I realize this is ambitious, and that you didn't ask for a lesson plan. Even so, I'm just thinking about how that might be done within your time constraints in this instance, to get the students jazzed about poetry. For me, poetry never really clicked as something worth reading until I began to engage in writing it. Getting disenfranchised students to write and share their writing, I think, is an excellent way to get them to fall in love with poetry, and literature more generally speaking.

Hope that's not too preachy.

- James

[newsclippings]

That you'e probably never going to get good at it, so you might as well cuss like a harlot if you're not going to rhyme.

[Leanne]

That you'e probably never going to get good at it, so you might as well cuss like a harlot if you're not going to rhyme.

Or if you ARE going to rhyme, actually. Poetry is all about language...

James, those are all good ideas and all things I teach my students -- the trouble with this particular workshop was that it was trying to teach a bunch of teachers to teach poetry when they'd been taught poetry badly themselves. The golden rule for teaching anything is enthusiasm and it's hard to be enthusiastic about something your English teachers ruined for you.

For the record, the workshop went down very well (it was in September). Though I despaired at the ignorance of some participants, the majority have taken a few lessons on board and are delivering poetry as a regular part of their lessons. My own students don't like writing poetry that doesn't rhyme, so I've killed their couplets, taught them how meter works and have them writing sonnets and rondeaux as part of their assessment portfolios. Fortunately, thanks to rap/hiphop they have an excellent feel for rhythm that was easily translated into iambic pentameter.

---

PS. I would never invite a student of mine to this forum, I'm sorry to say -- they're 15 and far too impressionable

[billy]

That you'e probably never going to get good at it, so you might as well cuss like a harlot if you're not going to rhyme.

fuckin 'A' sister

one of my answers would be.
how to write it

---

PS. I would never invite a student of mine to this forum, I'm sorry to say -- they're 15 and far too impressionable

they'd probably show us all up

[abu nuwas]

That you'e probably never going to get good at it, so you might as well cuss like a harlot if you're not going to rhyme.

Or if you ARE going to rhyme, actually. Poetry is all about language...

James, those are all good ideas and all things I teach my students -- the trouble with this particular workshop was that it was trying to teach a bunch of teachers to teach poetry when they'd been taught poetry badly themselves. The golden rule for teaching anything is enthusiasm and it's hard to be enthusiastic about something your English teachers ruined for you.

For the record, the workshop went down very well (it was in September). Though I despaired at the ignorance of some participants, the majority have taken a few lessons on board and are delivering poetry as a regular part of their lessons. My own students don't like writing poetry that doesn't rhyme, so I've killed their couplets, taught them how meter works and have them writing sonnets and rondeaux as part of their assessment portfolios. Fortunately, thanks to rap/hiphop they have an excellent feel for rhythm that was easily translated into iambic pentameter.

---

PS. I would never invite a student of mine to this forum, I'm sorry to say -- they're 15 and far too impressionable

I am glad it went well. I fancy you have confused people here with two groups -- your own challenged 15 year olds, and the teachers; but perhaps there is not such a great gulf between them.

For what it is worth, I do not think I did suffer significantly at the hands of teachers. I believe that poetry read aloud by the teacher, or Richard Burton et al with strong stresses, is invaluable . I notice that people who have not imbibed meter as children, find it very difficult to do later on. One meter well-understood is, I sense, sufficient to enable others to be picked up. In general, I think children should be stretched, and would expect them to grasp the Rubaiyat or Ancient Mariner,with the teacher there to guide and explain. The colorful language combined with the meter, I think, has every chance of making some of it sink in, and remain.

I wonder if the same would help introduce many teachers who have not been much involved with poetry, but who are supposed to teach it.

Most important: inspire, inspire, inspire.

[newsclippings]

I think it's great at all that at least someone introduced poetry to kids. Bad or not, being exposed to it is kind of important. I think schooling should be more focused with presenting kids with the greats instead of asking them to write anyway.