The growth of organic verse..

[tectak]

I posted in "serious" a somewhat enigmatic piece. The devil was in me. Some of you may remember, for diverse reasons, Erthona (AKA Dale) who haunted these forums when quick and may do so yet when dead....which I fear, very sadly, is the case. A google will reveal all.
Dale and I argued often about the undeniably organic nature of the unfolding poetic masterpiece (lingua in maxillam) . I insisted that writing organically was a debatable device, deliberately adopted by the poet when required. Dale argued that by the very action of transferring thought to the written word in ANY contrived fashion, one was employing an organic technique.
To prove my case, I began to write a piece in free-fall. I decided to write a line and then see what popped into the fractal frame; continuing the process until enough became sufficient. The idea was to see if Dale (or anyone foolish enough to get involved) could tell the difference between this "free-fall" verse and something deliberate and pensive.
In true erthona fashion, the cantankerous bugger went and died on me before I had built my petard.
So...the piece I am referring to, loftily and inconsequentially entitled "Patet exposita ad oculos" ( obvious when seen by the eye) is the "sufficiency" I referred to earlier.
Frankly, most are leaving it well alone but for me, it has some merit. I would say that, wouldn't I. No. I am not showing conceit. I really mean that the "technique" is empowering. We do not write anything through free will. Discuss.
In "Patet exposita ad oculos" the very first line is unchanged from how it was first composited. The piece had NO title, NO preconceived direction, NO point and NO purpose other than the exercising of the intellect. You may debate that, too.
The whole thing was written without reflection or with any thought of what had gone before and without any stimulants being involved. Then, as I am fond of telling others, I read it out loud. Utter rubbish.
So I punctuated it. I corrected misspellings. I lined it out. I tweaked and amplified whatever accidental nuances the piece of its own making possessed...and slowly, it developed a flavour.
Now you may well disagree, but quite quickly a thematic thread began to thicken...I was surprised that it became quickly but unmistakably "religious"...or more precisely, sacrilegious. As it was born, so it grew.
The title was stuck on to add to the catholicism of the piece but the glue was the Ecclesiastes quotation which is on a bridge close by, over the road on the banks of the Tees. It says all I wanted to say about belief. Billy got it with his "Fuck this for a Lark" comment on the piece. Everytime I go under that bloody bridge and read in copper-plate silvered letters that pathetically puerile line "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full..." I hear myself scream "Idiot".
Why is this of import? Well, it fascinated me to observe how what was nothing more than a whole heap of organic manure could come to have SOME meaning, outside the writer's control, if only to indicate that the mental process continually strives for clarification. If I were to work more on the piece I could, and of this I am certain, make it in to a meaningfull bit of poetry....but I will not.
Organic verse?
Is it worth the extra?
Discuss. Erthona would.
Best, tectak

[billy]

i hope what you say about erthona is misinformation

i have no idea what organic write is though i've tried my hand a few times at orgasmic writing , isn't all writing organic by the very nature of what we are., i'll see how the discussion evolves and then i'll pick a side and jump in, at present i'm not clued up enough to debate it. stay safe erthona.

[Brownlie]

I would like more of an explanation of what organic form is if anyone is willing to contribute their knowledge. Anything to procrastinate these essays I have to write.

[tectak]

I would like more of an explanation of what organic form is if anyone is willing to contribute their knowledge. Anything to procrastinate these essays I have to write.

Hi brownlie,
In this context, and as I was encouraged to understand, organic verse is simply the result of linking one thing to another without looking back to see where you have been or looking forward to see where you are going. Rather like a leaf growing from a bud with no "understanding" of the cellular "growth" producing the finished item.
Thus.
Crimson points of sugared peaks
crack beneath the silvered tongs,
Fired by coals that wait the grip
of vices. Tighter now, one twist, one more...
blah blah blah
Points, peaks, meringue, sugar, crack, sugar tongs, coal tongs, gripped by tongs, vice-like grip, tighten grip, twist to tighten etc.
In many ways, it is relational therapy. The "Say the first word that comes in to your head" nonsense much beloved of personality profilers...whatever that is. For me, with limited deep thinking ability, it produces lightweight stuff. For billy, it would need a 18+ certificate, for serge, I suspect it would divulge his undiscovered bisexuality...he will not protest, but if he does it will be too much. And you?
Best,
tectak

[serge gurkski]

,-) but then it's a potentially dangerous (if amusing) entertainment. I think, I will rather join billy (maybe wih a beer) and watch you do YOUR thing.

[cidermaid]

I'M a bit confused as to how this differs from the surreal exercise offered in the practice threads.

[Leanne]

I'M a bit confused as to how this differs from the surreal exercise offered in the practice threads.

It doesn't except for the Latin

I never thought I'd see Tectak proving Breton's point. It is the nature of the human mind to demand order and meaning, but a fully conscious mind will often proscribe certain meanings because of this very tendency -- so by abandoning absolute consciousness and allowing a degree of automation we connect hand to unconscious in unholy chaotic union and consequences be damned! Even the "lightweight stuff" can reveal quite a lot about the thought processes of the poet (although one dwells upon those processes too long at his/her extreme peril). Nonetheless, viewed in the proper light a surrealist text -- or organic, if you prefer -- is an insight into the mind of the writer, but far more into the mind of the reader and his/her tendency to make connections where perhaps another reader would see something entirely different. This process still creates a general mood and leads the reader in a particular direction, but the scenery varies depending on the light. The finished product, viewed in conjunction with the starting point and the editing process, can reveal even more frightening things about the writer

This is how I write probably 80% of my stuff. That should come as no surprise to anyone who's ever read something of mine and said "what the fuck?". Which is most likely everyone Even sonnets and villanelles and such, now that I've written so very many of them, are part of an automated process. Hooray for robots!

[serge gurkski]

I'M a bit confused as to how this differs from the surreal exercise offered in the practice threads.

It doesn't except for the Latin

I never thought I'd see Tectak proving Breton's point. It is the nature of the human mind to demand order and meaning, but a fully conscious mind will often proscribe certain meanings because of this very tendency -- so by abandoning absolute consciousness and allowing a degree of automation we connect hand to unconscious in unholy chaotic union and consequences be damned! Even the "lightweight stuff" can reveal quite a lot about the thought processes of the poet (although one dwells upon those processes too long at his/her extreme peril). Nonetheless, viewed in the proper light a surrealist text -- or organic, if you prefer -- is an insight into the mind of the writer, but far more into the mind of the reader and his/her tendency to make connections where perhaps another reader would see something entirely different. This process still creates a general mood and leads the reader in a particular direction, but the scenery varies depending on the light. The finished product, viewed in conjunction with the starting point and the editing process, can reveal even more frightening things about the writer

This is how I write probably 80% of my stuff. That should come as no surprise to anyone who's ever read something of mine and said "what the fuck?". Which is most likely everyone Even sonnets and villanelles and such, now that I've written so very many of them, are part of an automated process. Hooray for robots!

Case closed. (Anyone disagrees?)
cheers

[billy]

me....not really, so it's like train of thought poetry?

this is how i do it, i start with an idea, a line of poetry then i wing it, usually each line connects with the one above and below sometimes that's all it connects with sometimes not. while it is sometimes written as a train of thought, it's often carriages of thought. if we use chess as an analogy, train of thought being the 5 to 7 moves ahead player, i'm only one move ahead, (though at chess i do play 4 to 6 moves ahead ) i suppose i'm an organic writer in that each line is is connected to the one above, though i had no idea what i was going to write. the only conscious thought i had was the first thought/line. even that is one of many in a weird thought process.

[rowens]

Has anyone here ever been in a state of absolute consciousness?

And automatic writing never seems like a good description. Not automatic. Even when we're dreaming, we're conscious of what we're dreaming, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing it. We're never aware of what we're unconscious of. And the problem with word association is that when you say the first thing that comes to mind, that word is interpreted by the analyst's consciousness, and the patterns that make up that conscious world, based chiefly on the standard experiences of the current society. Then, in some subtle way, as if magic, the patient can be convinced of one thing or another by having associations assimilated into some sense of social understanding. Leading the patient into a sense of health and normalcy.

That's a very good thing for society. Not necessarily for the individual. Sometimes, sometimes not.

Poetry uses magic in similar ways.

And the idea "automatic writing" isn't a good description because there are other selves, things, "spirits" "daimons" that are "thinking" within our minds at all times. We just aren't conscious of them until we are. Our collective norms surface, and we piece them together and display them through a persona we call our self.

There are other selves or things or beings in our minds; there are also "antibeings". They aren't things, and they don't think. But those are normally, if at all possible, kept down in our Sewers. At least we consciously hope so.

[rayheinrich]

Oh no! Not Erthona. The short time I experienced him, alas,
he was the devil's own to argue with (and I enjoyed every
word of it). Won't say "rest in peace" as I suspect he'd hate
the very thought of that.

----------------------------------------------------

IF you're talking about "organic form", you got it a bit wrong:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/learning/essay/237852

It's about origination/creation (and its products), not
about a complete process.

Not that it matters that much since I lump "organic form" in
with a whole host of attempts to re-name/re-describe the same
old creative process and/or its product. Mostly, I think, it's
a vain attempt to persuade the gullible that something original
(besides new nomenclature) has been discovered.

cynical ray

[tectak]

Oh no! Not Erthona. The short time I experienced him, alas,
he was the devil's own to argue with (and I enjoyed every
word of it). Won't say "rest in peace" as I suspect he'd hate
the very thought of that.

----------------------------------------------------

IF you're talking about "organic form", you got it a bit wrong:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/learning/essay/237852

It's about origination/creation (and its products), not
about a complete process.

Not that it matters that much since I lump "organic form" in
with a whole host of attempts to re-name/re-describe the same
old creative process and/or its product. Mostly, I think, it's
a vain attempt to persuade the gullible that something original
(besides new nomenclature) has been discovered.

cynical ray

Amen to that,ray.
I have no mixed feelings about the described process. It is a shite machine. Erthona...well...he would convince me otherwise...but I loved the guy for his sphincter control. Best in the business...controlled retention and release.
He will not be forgotten.
Best,
tectak

[rayheinrich]

... It is a shite machine.

Yes indeedy!

Erthona...well...he would convince me otherwise...but I loved the guy for his sphincter control. Best in the business...controlled retention and release.
He will not be forgotten.
Best,
tectak

Nor will I. Wish I'd had more time to appreciate him.