09-06-2017, 11:52 AM
Firstly, I have read the letter a few times, and just once more now for good measure. I can find no explicit statement saying that Paul is speaking anything but generally. "A woman should learn in quietness full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, and then eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became the sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety."
Thas is it. The complete verse. What does it literally say? I'll tell you what it doesn't literally say, it doesn't say "women must be submissive only to men who are believers, but can prattle on till their hearts content to men who are non-believers". It simply doesn't say that. Not here, and not anywhere in the letter. And if you are reading it like that you are unequivocally, demonstrably, interpreting it. in fact, a good portion of all verbal and written communication isn't to be taken literally. And to do so would be profoundly stupid.
Secondly, you don't know what I believe. Let's say, for argument's sake, I believe in the literal word of the bible. Now, I read Paul's words as ordained by God himself, and he literally says women must be silent! And as he doesn't specify which women or for how long or in what situation, I must read it literally as all women, all the time, in every situation. Now, as you're a woman, and i believe in the literal word of the scriptures, can you tell me I'm wrong? And then we're really in trouble, two people professing to believe in the literal word of the bible, getting into an argument about how to interpret what Paul says about women. And then you go off and find your own little group who agree with you and I go off and find my own little group that agrees with me. And as we both read the genocidey bits in the bible literally, we nuke each other.
and yes, I am using this one verse to illustrate a point, that you do not believe in the literal word of ALL the scriptures in the collection of books called the bible. But if you don't consider Timothy a part of the bible you have to take literally, then fair enough. I would ask what criteria you pick and choose, but I have almost lost my enthusiasm for it.
The way I see it, if there were a God, he wrote the bible thousands of years ago, communicating with incredibly primitive people, and he communicated in a way they could understand and make sense of... in the form of stories and allegory proverbs, song, simple commandments, etc. And these worked. For a time. But he also gave us the potential and the resources to gradually come to understand the world and the universe and the complex mechanisms by which it works on a much deeper level. And it is through observing and understanding nature that we get closer to god, closer than reading some dusty old book written to inspire barbaric tribes in the desert some three thousand years ago.
Sorry, I went off point there. And I'm not trying to make you question your faith, or even mock or offend. If anything, having to defend your faith should help strengthen it. I'm very much like Jesus in that respect.
Thas is it. The complete verse. What does it literally say? I'll tell you what it doesn't literally say, it doesn't say "women must be submissive only to men who are believers, but can prattle on till their hearts content to men who are non-believers". It simply doesn't say that. Not here, and not anywhere in the letter. And if you are reading it like that you are unequivocally, demonstrably, interpreting it. in fact, a good portion of all verbal and written communication isn't to be taken literally. And to do so would be profoundly stupid.
Secondly, you don't know what I believe. Let's say, for argument's sake, I believe in the literal word of the bible. Now, I read Paul's words as ordained by God himself, and he literally says women must be silent! And as he doesn't specify which women or for how long or in what situation, I must read it literally as all women, all the time, in every situation. Now, as you're a woman, and i believe in the literal word of the scriptures, can you tell me I'm wrong? And then we're really in trouble, two people professing to believe in the literal word of the bible, getting into an argument about how to interpret what Paul says about women. And then you go off and find your own little group who agree with you and I go off and find my own little group that agrees with me. And as we both read the genocidey bits in the bible literally, we nuke each other.
and yes, I am using this one verse to illustrate a point, that you do not believe in the literal word of ALL the scriptures in the collection of books called the bible. But if you don't consider Timothy a part of the bible you have to take literally, then fair enough. I would ask what criteria you pick and choose, but I have almost lost my enthusiasm for it.
The way I see it, if there were a God, he wrote the bible thousands of years ago, communicating with incredibly primitive people, and he communicated in a way they could understand and make sense of... in the form of stories and allegory proverbs, song, simple commandments, etc. And these worked. For a time. But he also gave us the potential and the resources to gradually come to understand the world and the universe and the complex mechanisms by which it works on a much deeper level. And it is through observing and understanding nature that we get closer to god, closer than reading some dusty old book written to inspire barbaric tribes in the desert some three thousand years ago.
Sorry, I went off point there. And I'm not trying to make you question your faith, or even mock or offend. If anything, having to defend your faith should help strengthen it. I'm very much like Jesus in that respect.