07-02-2016, 11:45 AM
(07-01-2016, 07:55 AM)shemthepenman Wrote: while Leanne is correct that you have posed a false dichotomy, i think what you really mean is: is pointing out the flaws in a poem more beneficial to the poet than pointing out the strengths? and actually, i think Leanne's comment is telling, because, again, as she says if you only want the positive half of the criticism go to a vanity site [meant disparagingly, i presume]; yet, if you want only the different half, the negative half, the half that tells you what's wrong, that's far more acceptable. why? well, i would suggest, thoughtful and informed 'negative' criticism is always productive, whereas praise is relatively static and self-contained. it builds confidence but practically rarely improves the quality of future efforts - unless, of course, you have found your voice and feel pretty confident that you are, indeed, a poet.Damn shem, this is straight inspiration right here for both parties. It makes me want to write as well as write crit. It's basically everything I was trying to say but didnt know how, very dope.
for example, i recently had nothing but praise for a certain poem posted here called 'lipstick'. one of the things i praised if for was it's use of form to represent the concept. now, what does the poet do with that? nods and says 'glad you liked it'. it doesn't move anything forward. on the other hand, his edit did not use this form which i saw as a detriment to the poem. this 'negative' criticism [that in changing the form the poem loses something] could conceivably cause a change. not necessarily, but the possibility is there - although, probably not cos' that fella's not been seen for dust.
the other thing is, so-called negatived criticism gives you a sort of conceptual space to be creative and original. and this is why the cliche is one of the best criticisms one can drum into a new poet. someone writes something cliche. tell them. they do it again. tell them again. eventually, they'll be looking for it themselves. and this isn't just about improving their writing, it is giving them space to be genuinely creative. basically, it is like chasing them down a bottleneck whereby they will pop out the other end into their own space of possibilities. and this is just one thing. even simpler is spelling [i've had my own led/lead problems today]. it would be pointless to praise someone's spelling. but point out a misspelling and it has some practical value.
but, this isn't to say praise is completely irrelevant. it certainly inspires confidence to continue; which is definitely why criticism shouldn't be all about the flaws.
NOTE: when i say flaws or 'negative criticism', i am pretty much talking about the fundamentals and what the intentions were of the poet. for example, i am sure no one really sets out to write a cliched poem, therefore it is a valid criticism and helpful and productive. and this comes down to the critic's judgement. there are of course grey areas of taste and all that, but the principle of 'negative' criticism being an active force remains. it is a bit like what Schopenhauer said about pain being positive and wellbeing being negative. he said something like one hardly notices their physical body when in a state of rest and comfort. . . but get a tiny little stone stuck in your shoe. . .
anyway, i am rambling on. . . s'wot i finks anyways.
I like what you said about the bottleneck, just cuz it makes so much sense, it could probably be a line in a poem, it sucks tho because i basically feel like im stuck inside that bottleneck, and i cant get out.
But if negative crit helps how you say,
then i should start writing some bad poems.
Ha nah just kidding, thats actually one of my worries about negative crit,
that is allowing your own expectations of yourself to diminish due to the fact youre not worried that it sucks,
which leads me to wonder,
can poetry be taught, or is it supernatural, a gift of sorts,
is there any point to even workshopping at all...?
now im rambling... dont answer that last bit hah
(07-01-2016, 08:33 AM)Pdeathstar Wrote: sometimes it's really effective to tell someone "stop. your poem sucks, you suck, and spending your time regurgitating lyrics from a 90s pop band isn't doing anyone any favors. Seriously, this shit you just posted makes me wonder if it you'd be better finding a tall building. Jesus Christ. A deeper cut? really? That's what you came up with. Just shut the fuck up and slice up your arm, not across it. Thanks for the read"I mean if you dont care that every bad poem you comment on gets moved to The Sewer(hehe) I say go for it, but you're gonna be more of a flak gun than a sharpshooter, just sayin.
but, I'm not allowed. It's easier to point at shit than to uncover gold. It might be wiser to dig for gold, but when I critique I generally settle for shit.
(07-01-2016, 10:09 AM)ellajam Wrote:Ella,(07-01-2016, 07:28 AM)Weeded Wrote:When I first came here I was the same writing fool I am now but knew nothing about poetry except I knew what I liked. So in order to take part, I just pointed out what I liked and started to think about why. Eventually while I was pointing out what I liked I started to identify what might be improved. It's a fine path for newbs if they stick around, it's one way into the site for those of us who are relatively uneducated but love the sounds, images and ideas that words make.(07-01-2016, 06:01 AM)Leanne Wrote: The question itself is flawed. You pose it as if criticism is the opposite to praise, but it's not. Criticism does not mean the same thing as censure. It is not a negative thing at all -- it is merely a detailed comment. That detail should always include positive and negative aspects, with constructive comments as to how something may be improved.Ah, I see what you mean when you explain it. The word criticism to me has always had, mm not a negative connotation, but not a positive connotation to it either. I will admit this question stemmed from my own wonderings however of quite a few of these new fellows and their critiques. Alot of praise, alot of I like this and here's why, to which it led me to wonder if praise is at all constructive. What I really wanted to ask is "Is there any point to praise?" but I didnt want to sound like a dick
If you only want half the criticism -- ie. just praise -- then Facebook might be a better place to post. Or AllPoetry, they're quite big on blowing smoke up people's arses.
It seems you've answered that as well
Yeah, youre very right. This is a workshop after all.
Guess I am just beginning to notice stuff that makes me wonder other stuff
Crit away


