02-02-2016, 11:28 PM
Style, at least in terms of form, which is really what we are talking about, should be used to best purpose to fit the form. To write in the same "style" all of the time only shows the limitations of the poet. This is different from a person's unique style, which is something that develops over years, if the person has talent to begin with. Ginsberg wrote primary in formal verse for many years before he began writing beat poetry. People seem to think it is easy to write in that "style", but they are really missing about 90% of what is actually going on. This is the same with many readers, they read only the superficial level of the poem (of course many poems only have a superficial level).
Anyway, this poem in interesting as it gives false impressions when first read.
"I saw I dreamt
Two men hoisted hung up not American the rope
Not closed on their breathing
But this rope tied them spine to spine somehow"
Notice: "Not closed on their breathing"
He uses a line that is negative in nature to initially give the impression that they are being hung by the neck, someone mentioned the Old West. I too am guilty of reading it that way the first time through. Yet, it says the opposite, the rope was "not closed on their breathing" in other words they were not being hung by the neck. Instead they were tied back to back ("spine to spine") and hoisted up. Notice however the clever use of the inserted word "hung" in between "hoisted' and "up" giving the false impression that they were being hanged.
(Also if one breaks the part line out "hung up not American" it could be read, they were not American , but were hung up, like Americans are "hung up" to use the vernacular. Of course pulling things out of it like this causes one to ponder what is real and what is imaginary. It is one of the failings of this type of ambiguous poem, so many things can be pulled out of it, very quickly contradictions emerge and one wonders if it is not all just a bunch of rubbish.)
Then there is the interjection of "American" but the negative once again " not American the rope". However now the idea of "American" is in the mind of the reader, just as "hang" is in the mind of the reader.
So neither were these two men hung (hoisted yes), nor did America have anything to do with it, even to the supplying of the rope as far as the reader knows .
For me it is an excellent analysis of bias on the part of the reader. It also points outs out how much impact a single word can have on the reader (unconsciously) in terms of the over effect of a poem. As we are always saying, words are at a premium, which means use them judiciously and correctly, don't go making up your own meaning for them.
I did not address the first line because there is no clear cut way to choose between the two. Did the speaker "dream", or did he "see" (or did he see in a dream?), I'll flip the coin and go with dream, just for arguments sake? So with that in mind, let us strip away the subterfuge and see what we have. This is by by no means to demean the poem, but to point out it's cleverness.
"I dreamt (of)
Two men hoisted up (by a) rope
tied spine to spine"
Yes, a very clever poem.
However Leanne, I'm afraid the only tautology I see is the tautness of the rope.
Oh yes, I forgot the basic question, "What style is this". Well for that you need to enroll in the university where it is their job to pigeonhole all sorts of things like this. Although if I were doing so, I would classify it as Negative Post Beat Modern poem, although I don't that will help you in your search
Very Beatnik though (finger snaps all around)
dale
Anyway, this poem in interesting as it gives false impressions when first read.
"I saw I dreamt
Two men hoisted hung up not American the rope
Not closed on their breathing
But this rope tied them spine to spine somehow"
Notice: "Not closed on their breathing"
He uses a line that is negative in nature to initially give the impression that they are being hung by the neck, someone mentioned the Old West. I too am guilty of reading it that way the first time through. Yet, it says the opposite, the rope was "not closed on their breathing" in other words they were not being hung by the neck. Instead they were tied back to back ("spine to spine") and hoisted up. Notice however the clever use of the inserted word "hung" in between "hoisted' and "up" giving the false impression that they were being hanged.
(Also if one breaks the part line out "hung up not American" it could be read, they were not American , but were hung up, like Americans are "hung up" to use the vernacular. Of course pulling things out of it like this causes one to ponder what is real and what is imaginary. It is one of the failings of this type of ambiguous poem, so many things can be pulled out of it, very quickly contradictions emerge and one wonders if it is not all just a bunch of rubbish.)
Then there is the interjection of "American" but the negative once again " not American the rope". However now the idea of "American" is in the mind of the reader, just as "hang" is in the mind of the reader.
So neither were these two men hung (hoisted yes), nor did America have anything to do with it, even to the supplying of the rope as far as the reader knows .
For me it is an excellent analysis of bias on the part of the reader. It also points outs out how much impact a single word can have on the reader (unconsciously) in terms of the over effect of a poem. As we are always saying, words are at a premium, which means use them judiciously and correctly, don't go making up your own meaning for them.
I did not address the first line because there is no clear cut way to choose between the two. Did the speaker "dream", or did he "see" (or did he see in a dream?), I'll flip the coin and go with dream, just for arguments sake? So with that in mind, let us strip away the subterfuge and see what we have. This is by by no means to demean the poem, but to point out it's cleverness.
"I dreamt (of)
Two men hoisted up (by a) rope
tied spine to spine"
Yes, a very clever poem.
However Leanne, I'm afraid the only tautology I see is the tautness of the rope.
Oh yes, I forgot the basic question, "What style is this". Well for that you need to enroll in the university where it is their job to pigeonhole all sorts of things like this. Although if I were doing so, I would classify it as Negative Post Beat Modern poem, although I don't that will help you in your search

Very Beatnik though (finger snaps all around)
dale
How long after picking up the brush, the first masterpiece?
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.
The goal is not to obfuscate that which is clear, but make clear that which isn't.

