How we choose to write.

[wasellajam]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a better poet sooner?

[dukealien]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a poet sooner?

Unless there's a challenge - imposed by self or others - the idea behind the poem really does seem to choose the form... but indirectly.  If it's a simple idea, A then B or just A slightly elaborated, it tends to be a haiku.  If it's a simple idea about which much can be said, it tends to be tetrameter; if the idea has twists, pentameter.  The thing is, the idea often comes with a first line which then sets the meter for the rest.  If I can jot down that first line when the idea strikes, it's sometimes enough to get the whole thing going... if I can also remember the frame of mind that made the idea seem to be important, amusing, or just make sense.

Beyond that, some forms have expected kinds of ideation:  natural beauty for haiku, human nature for senryu, for example.  Sonnets for romance (though sometimes of an ironic or subverting sort).  And, usefully, Shakespearean for that short but sharp turn at the end and Petrarchan for the more balanced question-and-answer.

And sometimes the idea insists on changing form after I start:  the sonnet's done after 12 lines, or insists on being a column of heroic couplets.  In prose I tend to write long, academic sentences unless I brutally ten-dash-one* them, so my default is pentameter.

---

* AFP 10-1, Guide to Air Force Writing (back in the day), demanded short sentences, subject-verb-object, and was observed principally in the breach.

[busker]

I think form and meter are irrelevant. I don’t know why we persist with them. It’s like using a slide rule or an abacus because it’s tradition. Or using a drafter instead of autocad. It is a form of barely excusable barbarism. We might as well be eschewing tomatoes and avocados, because they’re new fangled. Or riding horses.

The idea that regular meter is a good idea is utterly devoid of any merit. It’s like saying that GPUs are good, as long as they are marchant calculators (something I learnt about from Feynman’s books. I wasn’t born in the 20s).

So basically, I think any form that combines metre a little irregularly is good. Regular metre is like the baby shark song, rage inducing. After that, it’s what you’re trying to say, as long as it’s interesting.

---

The objective of poetry is to say interesting things in a nice way, ultimately to create beauty and joy. And there are many ways of doing this, but the main thing is that you should surprise the reader. Regular form and meter is the opposite of that.

[wasellajam]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a poet sooner?

Unless there's a challenge - imposed by self or others - the idea behind the poem really does seem to choose the form... but indirectly.  If it's a simple idea, A then B or just A slightly elaborated, it tends to be a haiku.  If it's a simple idea about which much can be said, it tends to be tetrameter; if the idea has twists, pentameter.  The thing is, the idea often comes with a first line which then sets the meter for the rest.  If I can jot down that first line when the idea strikes, it's sometimes enough to get the whole thing going... if I can also remember the frame of mind that made the idea seem to be important, amusing, or just make sense.

Beyond that, some forms have expected kinds of ideation:  natural beauty for haiku, human nature for senryu, for example.  Sonnets for romance (though sometimes of an ironic or subverting sort).  And, usefully, Shakespearean for that short but sharp turn at the end and Petrarchan for the more balanced question-and-answer.

And sometimes the idea insists on changing form after I start:  the sonnet's done after 12 lines, or insists on being a column of heroic couplets.  In prose I tend to write long, academic sentences unless I brutally ten-dash-one* them, so my default is pentameter.

---

* AFP 10-1, Guide to Air Force Writing (back in the day), demanded short sentences, subject-verb-object, and was observed principally in the breach.

Thanks so much for such a thorough reply. For me, this:


" If it's a simple idea about which much can be said, it tends to be tetrameter; if the idea has twists, pentameter."

So, is tetrameter discouraging twists? Is it not leaving room for a deepening of an idea that started out simple? Do you think a poem can start in tetrameter them switch midway?

---

I think form and meter are irrelevant. I don’t know why we persist with them. It’s like using a slide rule or an abacus because it’s tradition. Or using a drafter instead of autocad. It is a form of barely excusable barbarism. We might as well be eschewing tomatoes and avocados, because they’re new fangled. Or riding horses.

The idea that regular meter is a good idea is utterly devoid of any merit. It’s like saying that GPUs are good, as long as they are marchant calculators (something I learnt about from Feynman’s books. I wasn’t born in the 20s).

So basically, I think any form that combines metre a little irregularly is good. Regular metre is like the baby shark song, rage inducing. After that, it’s what you’re trying to say, as long as it’s interesting.

---

The objective of poetry is to say interesting things in a nice way, ultimately to create beauty and joy. And there are many ways of doing this, but the main thing is that you should surprise the reader. Regular form and meter is the opposite of that.

Love this response! Personally, I think there can be beauty, joy and surprise within any form if the poet is good enough but I hear you. All art exists in the mind of the perceiver and when something turns you off it just does.

[milo]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a poet sooner?

If I am writing "prompted poetry" or occasional verse it is almost always a sonnet or a triolet.  The reason is because I am lazy and you can dash off any nonsense to a prompt in free verse and prompted free verse is almost always terrible.

If it is inspired verse - something that has been chewing away at me for a bit or something that just kind of hits me - it is almost exclusively free verse (with some exceptions) and after it is written i will often make a pass to smooth the rhythm which - being we are speaking of English poetry - frequently includes making many of the lines roughly iambic.

If you are not writing to forms, it is perfectly accetable to mix lines of different feet although the ear prefers to hear a declination so it makes sense to do a pass for sonics after you have written.

The toughest part with writing poetry is always the ideation - getting those original ideas down, the spark, the creative work.  After that, it is pretty trivial to put it into any form - and by trivial I don't mean fast, just that it is a mechanical process that is a forgone conclusion.  Even if I am writing a prompted poem or occasional verse, I first try to think of the turn.  Once you have that, you really have the poem.

[wasellajam]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a poet sooner?

If I am writing "prompted poetry" or occasional verse it is almost always a sonnet or a triolet.  The reason is because I am lazy and you can dash off any nonsense to a prompt in free verse and prompted free verse is almost always terrible.

If it is inspired verse - something that has been chewing away at me for a bit or something that just kind of hits me - it is almost exclusively free verse (with some exceptions) and after it is written i will often make a pass to smooth the rhythm which - being we are speaking of English poetry - frequently includes making many of the lines roughly iambic.

If you are not writing to forms, it is perfectly accetable to mix lines of different feet although the ear prefers to hear a declination so it makes sense to do a pass for sonics after you have written.

The toughest part with writing poetry is always the ideation - getting those original ideas down, the spark, the creative work.  After that, it is pretty trivial to put it into any form - and by trivial I don't mean fast, just that it is a mechanical process that is a forgone conclusion.  Even if I am writing a prompted poem or occasional verse, I first try to think of the turn.  Once you have that, you really have the poem.

For me, if I remember correctly, I use a running start then when the turn
comes to me I can sprint to it. Any thoughts on choosing the more difficult write? By declination do you mean starting with longer lines? Do you think there's room in tetrameter's bounce for an idea to become weightier as the poem progresses?

How am I doing at not writing a poem?

[CRNDLSM]

I saw Milo post about reading 1000 bad poems to find a great poem, I only hope writing 1000 bad poems can make a good one. I mostly just practice forms because I feel like I have more control over what I'm saying, even though it's nothing of import. And sometimes it's just flipping a coin to form. Every now and then something inside me forces me to write and I don't know what's gonna happen beginning to end, but I think practicing random forms helps with that spontaneous energy when it comes. If I've learned something new, I try it again in a different way

[milo]

What influences how you choose to write? If the poem does't immediately choose it's form, what makes you lean one way or another?

My current dilemma: Tetrameter comes so easily while pentameter is a struggle. Why? It's often only one word difference. But that's not my question.

If one form comes easily and another is a struggle which do you choose (leaving aside for now, if possible, which suites the poem best)? Is it preferable to have the ideas rush out or to stretch and search and shuffle through your brain to satisfy the one that's harder for you? I'm thinking long run. Sure it's nicer to have 3 poems than one but what do you think might bring you to your goal of being a poet sooner?

If I am writing "prompted poetry" or occasional verse it is almost always a sonnet or a triolet.  The reason is because I am lazy and you can dash off any nonsense to a prompt in free verse and prompted free verse is almost always terrible.

If it is inspired verse - something that has been chewing away at me for a bit or something that just kind of hits me - it is almost exclusively free verse (with some exceptions) and after it is written i will often make a pass to smooth the rhythm which - being we are speaking of English poetry - frequently includes making many of the lines roughly iambic.

If you are not writing to forms, it is perfectly accetable to mix lines of different feet although the ear prefers to hear a declination so it makes sense to do a pass for sonics after you have written.

The toughest part with writing poetry is always the ideation - getting those original ideas down, the spark, the creative work.  After that, it is pretty trivial to put it into any form - and by trivial I don't mean fast, just that it is a mechanical process that is a forgone conclusion.  Even if I am writing a prompted poem or occasional verse, I first try to think of the turn.  Once you have that, you really have the poem.

For me, if I remember correctly, I use a running start then when the turn
comes to me I can sprint to it. Any thoughts on choosing the more difficult write? By declination do you mean starting with longer lines? Do you think there's room in tetrameter's bounce for an idea to become weightier as the poem progresses?

How am I doing at not writing a poem?

Yah, by declination I mean the ear wants to hear fewer feet.  Of course you cannot go fewer forever so then you need to reset the expectations.  This can bee done in a number of different ways.  A strophe break is almost always good.  I do think tetrameter can be used for weightier topic but it is tough to pull off.

I think you are doing just fine not writing a poem but I also think you accidentally wrote a couple poems already so - who knows?

[UselessBlueprint]

I also notice that tetrameter is far more natural than pentameter for writing in English. I'm sure there is something to be said for languages having natural patterns. That said, once I've gotten a few lines of pentameter going, it's easy to keep it up. It just develops a different rhythm.

One of the things that probably keeps me from writing as much poetry as I could is the fact that I always choose the form before I begin writing. The form is deliberate and purposeful, and is something of a split-personality-esque decision.

When the philosopher writes, it's typically in free verse, which often devolves into a pathetic mapping of conscious thought onto precisely positioned words. A few years ago I committed to avoiding free verse as much as possible.

When the artist writes, it follows some easy and loose meter, like a songwriter. Sometimes a metric unit is "skipped" for convenience in various ways. In the past, this is most of what I've written. I consider most of it to be useless, but it's also how I got my name.

When the scientist writes, I pick a stricter form, usually a sonnet, though I've also done tetrameter for some longer pieces.

All of this is to say, the poem doesn't choose the form, I do. And I choose it based on the part of my mind I am communicating from.

[wasellajam]

I also notice that tetrameter is far more natural than pentameter for writing in English. I'm sure there is something to be said for languages having natural patterns. That said, once I've gotten a few lines of pentameter going, it's easy to keep it up. It just develops a different rhythm.

One of the things that probably keeps me from writing as much poetry as I could is the fact that I always choose the form before I begin writing. The form is deliberate and purposeful, and is something of a split-personality-esque decision.

When the philosopher writes, it's typically in free verse, which often devolves into a pathetic mapping of conscious thought onto precisely positioned words. A few years ago I committed to avoiding free verse as much as possible.

When the artist writes, it follows some easy and loose meter, like a songwriter. Sometimes a metric unit is "skipped" for convenience in various ways. In the past, this is most of what I've written. I consider most of it to be useless, but it's also how I got my name.

When the scientist writes, I pick a stricter form, usually a sonnet, though I've also done tetrameter for some longer pieces.

All of this is to say, the poem doesn't choose the form, I do. And I choose it based on the part of my mind I am communicating from.

Hi, UB!!!! Thanks so much for coming by and posting here. Coming back to writing with rusty skills and no great desire to scream my point of view has had me poking around for ways to light a spark. I think my writing was probablu at it's best when I learned the skills of forms and how to turn them to my advantage even in free verse. So just wondering how best to get started. Your response really gives me something to think about, thanks.

[dukealien]

Once tried to write a poem using this analogy and it failed miserably, but just a thought...

Writing poetry is like pedaling a bicycle uphill:  it the slope (subject) is easy or firmly in mind, you can use high gear (complex/difficult forms) and get over the top successfully.  If it's difficult - politics, science, history - easier gears (forms) will get you there.  So, sonnets for romance but free verse for politics, tetrameter for stories, blank verse for really rolling out an idea.  And a really difficult form (to do right) for a short, sharp hill (haiku) that in its senryu guise is suitable for the easiest ideas (human foibles).  Another metric for how "easy" a subject is would be how likely it is to resonate with the general reader... hence romance, but also death and certain forms of nonsense.

And changing gears - forms - partway through a climb is much like an admission of defeat... or at least weakness.  Or if up-shifting, great confidence developing in one's mastery of the idea.

[wasellajam]

Once tried to write a poem using this analogy and it failed miserably, but just a thought...

Writing poetry is like pedaling a bicycle uphill:  it the slope (subject) is easy or firmly in mind, you can use high gear (complex/difficult forms) and get over the top successfully.  If it's difficult - politics, science, history - easier gears (forms) will get you there.  So, sonnets for romance but free verse for politics, tetrameter for stories, blank verse for really rolling out an idea.  And a really difficult form (to do right) for a short, sharp hill (haiku) that in its senryu guise is suitable for the easiest ideas (human foibles).  Another metric for how "easy" a subject is would be how likely it is to resonate with the general reader... hence romance, but also death and certain forms of nonsense.

And changing gears - forms - partway through a climb is much like an admission of defeat... or at least weakness.  Or if up-shifting, great confidence developing in one's mastery of the idea.

This is certainly something to chew on. My initial response is But doesn't it give the reader a jolt awake when the subject appears in inappropriate dress?

But I think your response deserves attention, I'm going to try to absorb it and see if it helps. Thanks for trying to describe it in a way that might sink in.

[milo]

Once tried to write a poem using this analogy and it failed miserably, but just a thought...

Writing poetry is like pedaling a bicycle uphill:  it the slope (subject) is easy or firmly in mind, you can use high gear (complex/difficult forms) and get over the top successfully.  If it's difficult - politics, science, history - easier gears (forms) will get you there.  So, sonnets for romance but free verse for politics, tetrameter for stories, blank verse for really rolling out an idea.  And a really difficult form (to do right) for a short, sharp hill (haiku) that in its senryu guise is suitable for the easiest ideas (human foibles).  Another metric for how "easy" a subject is would be how likely it is to resonate with the general reader... hence romance, but also death and certain forms of nonsense.

And changing gears - forms - partway through a climb is much like an admission of defeat... or at least weakness.  Or if up-shifting, great confidence developing in one's mastery of the idea.

This is certainly something to chew on. My initial response is But doesn't it give the reader a jolt awake when the subject appears in inappropriate dress?

But I think your response deserves attention, I'm going to try to absorb it and see if it helps. Thanks for trying to describe it in a way that might sink in.

I think sometimes we get stuck with the idea that a poem was written this way so now it exists this way.  A friend (the inimitable Julie Carter) could take any poem and rewrite it in several different forms - hers, yours, famous people.

You could write something and say "hey Julie, what would this look like as a sonnet" and she would show you.  I think it's a good practice to do that on occasion.