the truth is, i just can't be bothered. my muse if i had one didn't leave, i just can't be arsed. it's not like i'm trying to write something and getting bogged down with each word. i just don't have any inclination. i find this weird considering this site. sometimes when i see petty squabbles, i think wtf. if i were that bothered i'd just fuck off. it's fine pointing a bad habit out now and again but the pigs arse was made for more. it's for piss taking and letting off steam; yes i have squabbled in the pig's arse and the sewer many times but it was seldom about poetry or feedback. i have complained about feedback many times but as an admin or a mod. this piece of shit rant is more than pig's arse fodder. in the mods we're discussing changing the serious forum to simply "workshop" needless to say it will have more than a shit load of rules. why is this, why do we have to spend time fucking about in order to get you lot to stop using said forum in spitting matches or love-fests. {and it's okay to attack me and cry foul over this post}

why can't people just post feedback in their, and poetry of course. why is there back biting because someone says something another person doesn't like? tell a mod and let them decide [though not too often as we'll see you as a bit troublesome.]

this post is aimed at no one yet at everyone; me included. as a workshop we want constructive input positive or negative, we don't care as long as it's not attacking the poet and isn't out and out nasty.

there is no right or wrong constructive feedback in general, while we may the whole point of a poem we can still give feedback as to how we see the bloody thing...okay, so we get it wrong now and again and not because it's ambiguous etc. no, we sometimes get it wrong because we just got it wrong and read a different poem.

a bit cheeky of me really to post this way seeing as i haven't posted any poetry lately, but i read most of the stuff and i read a lot of the feedback in serious and i sometimes i see of poem shite going on. you can have a laugh with your feedback as long as it 's connected with the feedback. you can more or less say what you want but be honest, don't be purposefully hurtful, and don't give feedback on feedback unless you're the opening poster.

use the pig and the sewer to mock morons, mods, and admin. it there to take life easy, to take the piss of each other but again, nasty is nasty. don't do that shit till they're banned though of course that's not a rule.

now, the big question: how can we/you make the serious forum work properly?
silly answers will mocked in the pigs arse.

Well, first of all this is a great site. There are others on the web, but none are as active or as forgiving.
So it's a shame if things go wrong.
I for one don't think there's an issue. A current flare up, but that's not the norm. For the most part people are polite if objective on this forum.
If it becomes a trend for posters to belittle each other rather than the work, or to post smart alecky comments in the critical fora, then the mods need to be more vigilant but as of now I don't see that as an issue. 
And in all cases, the guy who started it is to blame.

thanks for the reply. while it isn't going wrong the serious forum is sliding, not just the current flare up. should posters belittle each other instead of the works then most times a mod will say or/and do something. the mods being more vigilant point. they do it to help, it isn't a full time job and members should to some point self police their own actions. often we [poets] do give like for like. that adds to the slide. be a duck and let it wash off.

the guy who started it is to blame and so is the one who carries it on. often we end up with a thread full of pigeon shit. i know this because i've had too many of this sort of post eradicated by a mod. and come on, a smart alecky comment. sometimes it's better than saying "the poem is a piece of shit because.."

thanks again for the post and if we do change anything it will just be the name and have more defined rules and consequences such as post removal.

if it gave me $3.25 every time i visited the serious forum, it would work for me.


If you want the serious forum to have only in depth replies, easiest thing to do would set a character count limit..


e.g., let's say the average poem is 500 characters... , make the replies require 1500 characters. Then at least people would have to do a lot more bullshitting.

my opinion is that let the poet post where he wants, and let the critiquer choose how to respond. And the poet can get over their "that's a shit critique" pretentious attitude.

The guy who starts it is the one who responds to the critique and not to the poem.

people can post where they want and will be able to, we're just on about serious. the word count thing sounds good would be too much. [rule wise] alas we don't want bullshit. no one's being forced to use it but we're trying to make it so poems there are actually there for workshopping and not workshitting.

A "Workshitting Forum" might be interesting though that's probably one of the Pig's Arse's Functions. I assume these flare ups will happen from time to time like viral outbreaks. For me it all comes down to a few things:

1) Trolls exist.
2) Not everyone who hates a poem and makes comments about it is a troll
3) Some of the current mods even may have been perceived as trolls or simply assholes when they started here
4) Those same mods are some of the best contributors to the board.
5) We need to give things time if we're going to view things properly.

I'm not really in favor of a name change on the board. I don't see that it changes anything at all.

I just begin to ignore bullshit. If a certain person seems to be all about bullshit I start ignoring their posts. I can be brought back if I really like something they've written. There are people that hate established poets with over 50 years of good published work out there. There will be people that hate our work too. I tend to thank everyone and then fully ignore things that I don't agree with. I don't comment on it directly in a thread. If I fully disagree I write a critique on my point of view as if the other person had never posted.

It will pass. It's not even typhoid. It's more like a raging case of hemorrhoids that will eventually clear up.

Well, my ass is starting to burn. There will always be people who join and don't like the site but don't want to leave, no biggie there. What burns me is when people say they love the site but lose vision of what it's all about and the fact that it exists as long as its owner feels its serving the purpose he has in mind. All of us, except billy, are guests at the table and while we may party thoughtlessly and leave a mess, let's not burn the place down.

Admin/mods try to have as light a hand as possible, trusting members to have our fun and understand the value of the site at the same time. More mod interventions mean more warnings and three turn into a ban no matter who you are. When nasty meets nasty both parties are to blame, but for me it's much harsher when an active member makes a mockery of the site than when a newb walks in and struts their silly stuff.

I think I need a vacation, , where's that all expenses paid trip that was in the job description?

We reimburse you. Spend like it isn't your money and then I'm sure you'll get a check in the mail.

Alternatively, we could just start deleting crap that moves too far away from discussing the damn poem. That's never my first thought as I'm also in favor of a light approach.

(10-12-2016, 06:55 PM)Achebe Wrote:  the mods need to be more vigilant

You must be kidding.

Every time mods intervene, someone says we need less moderation, and every time they don't someone demands more. How about "the members need to be more adult"? The mods notice pretty much everything. We live in hope that people will be sensible enough that we don't have to bring out the red pen, or the ban hammer. We're here for poetry, just like you guys are supposed to be -- but we get precious fuck-all of that these days, because we're too busy responding to complaints that someone is being mean to someone else who should be able to handle it him/herself, especially when it's not mean in the first place but a bit of a difference of opinion.

(10-13-2016, 04:20 AM)Leanne Wrote:  

(10-12-2016, 06:55 PM)Achebe Wrote:  the mods need to be more vigilant

You must be kidding.

Every time mods intervene, someone says we need less moderation, and every time they don't someone demands more.  How about "the members need to be more adult"?

?? Did you perchance miss out my qualifying 'if it becomes a trend...' just before that? If it becomes a trend then yes, the mods have more work on their hands by definition.
It has not become a trend as yet.

I think this is a great site, and the Serious Workshop mostly works really well. I'm guilty of having made adverse responses to some posts but I think everyone does at times. We're all capable of seeing the same point from different perspectives too, and given time, equilibrium returns.

I think the Mods do a sterling job, and the site is very supportive of newbies, which is as it should be. I don't always remember to thank the Mods, but I know they keep us running on the rails. Mostly.

How to make it (Serious forum) work properly? I'm not sure what 'properly' means in this context. Maybe, before their first post into Serious, the writer should have to demonstrate they have read, and do comprehend, what is intended for the forum and what is expected of them. Including Leanne's rubric.

Often there's an apples/oranges feeling to the forum. It can be difficult for me to make connections to the different depths of understanding of poetry, and to know how best to support the poet's attempts, without damage to ego. I'm not a trained teacher and I admire Leanne's even-handedness and try to emulate it.

I totally appreciate the time people spend on my work here. It's mint. Seeing my work from a reader's perspective opens it up to me quickly, rather than spending time on it by myself which does achieve the same result, but takes a lot more time.

I'm happy to do whatever it takes, to keep the site up and running, and billy happy with it.

(10-13-2016, 04:41 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  I'm happy to do whatever it takes, to keep the site up and running, and billy happy with it.

Be careful what you offer...

(10-13-2016, 04:48 AM)Leanne Wrote:  

(10-13-2016, 04:41 AM)just mercedes Wrote:  I'm happy to do whatever it takes, to keep the site up and running, and billy happy with it.

Be careful what you offer...

I feel quite safe - the tyranny of distance, and all that ...

Billy, muses are like fairies.  You must not say they don't exist.     Now I'm going to have to do damage control in the magical community.  (Don't worry, I'm going to tell them it was a mistake and that you definitely do believe your muses exist.)

I miss your poetry.  I hope they grace you with a new one soon.

And I think the serious forum is already rather terrifying, I can't imagine what it would look like with more rules.    However, perhaps it could be closed to newbies just a tad longer than everything else.  Sort of like, how no one can post their poem without three valid critiques, maybe no one can post in serious until they've done like two or three in mild first.  Too many rules and suddenly you won't have any poems in there because it won't be worth anyone's effort to dodge all the red tape ... (then the only poems in there will be written in the cobwebs   ).  

Anyway, just my two cents worth because I'm daring myself to speak today.  I don't know yet if I'm going to regret it later ...  

as mods we have a few problems. if we let certain feedback simply go by it escalates, if we remove it we could be removing anotherwise reasonable piece of feedback. if we red pen a piece we're the terribly bad guys, while trends are the things to follow it only takes one threads to set the war drums banging. the person who put forward the title change for serious think if we call it the workshop people will actually take it more seriously, i'm starting to agree with them. the rules might just be different than extra, for example:

workshop the poem or move it to another forum.
don't attack the poet
to post a poem in the workshop you must have posted a reasonable piece of feedback in the workshop first.
all feedback should be constructive and as in depth as possible.

and quixi; i love you xx


todd; i'm an ex troll

the bullshit problem; see the above and remember; if good men stand by and that. at present all that distinguishes it in name from the other forums is the give more/better feedback stuff. it's still perceived as just another forum. many poets wouldn't go near a workshop let alone post in one. on the other hand everyone and granny posts in serious without giving it any thought of workshopping the piece.

jm: my sexual demands are in the post.

Ditto.

 

back to the problem:

Quote:The impression I get is that reviewers/critics here fasten upon the first putative problem like an errant comma and thenceforth snuffle through the remainder looking for more. Have noted that there be scant few bits of praise for the whole of anyone's efforts, only for bits and pieces of it. Wherefore Art was read by divers friends, English faculty among them, and all laughed. None of you did.

the above was part of a comment in a serious thread. they don't realize they're in a workshop environment, they just think they're in the big boy's forum where an errant comma shouldn't be mentioned. that's there's scant scant praise for the whole of anyone's efforts because it's really not a workshop but a well done you and the poem forum. of course there can be too much ridiculous in feedback but the place is a workshop.

(10-13-2016, 07:32 AM)billy Wrote:  

back to the problem:

Quote:The impression I get is that reviewers/critics here fasten upon the first putative problem like an errant comma and thenceforth snuffle through the remainder looking for more. Have noted that there be scant few bits of praise for the whole of anyone's efforts, only for bits and pieces of it. Wherefore Art was read by divers friends, English faculty among them, and all laughed. None of you did.

the above was part of a comment in a serious thread. they don't realize they're in a workshop environment, they just think they're in the big boy's forum where an errant comma shouldn't be mentioned. that's there's scant scant praise for the whole of anyone's efforts because it's really not a workshop but a well done you and the poem forum. of course there can be too much ridiculous in feedback but the place is a workshop.

That's exactly the problem, as I see it, billy. Making Workshop the focus; I thought it already was.  This kind of generic put-down (reviewers/critics here) has no place in a workshop. The passive-aggression of that 'snuffle', and the implied insult (English faculty/none of you) have no place. Responding to critique by pointing out how stupid 'everyone' is - has no place. So I've been surprised when the Mods allowed all of this to continue. I thought Serious was a bit more serious, I guess.

Maybe you have to be invited to join the Workshop? 

there is only really one solution. make me a mod and i'll clean up this god forsaken town.

(10-13-2016, 08:15 AM)shemthepenman Wrote:  there is only really one solution. make me a mod and i'll clean up this god forsaken town.

So the nuclear option.